[Gort]

I’m probably going to stir up a huge hornet’s nest by asking the following, but I don’t mean to. I’ve asked myself this question many times, and I’ve dodged it artfully, though not necessarily honestly. So please don’t get upset: it’s just a question that’s bounced around my metal cranium now and again, and I’d like to get your take on it.

So here goes (hold your breath) ...

Where does admiration of an enemy’s prowess end and idolization begin? Can one’s respect for an enemy tiptoe into ill-considered reverence and veneration? By prizing an enemy’s exploits and victories, do we profane our own country’s heros? Disesteem those who lost their lives in battle against this enemy? Perhaps offend the very concept of freedom they fought and died for?

In other words, can we overdo our passion? Are we simply students of history, caught up in the enthusiasms of battle, enamored with the flotsam of war? Or is something else entirely at work here?

Case in point: What would you say of a collector who amassed and displayed figurines of Nazi rulers and administrators and Third Reich paraphernalia? Would you question their sympathies? Would you think them a Nazi? What if they collected and displayed Cyber Hobby 1/6 German Wehrmacht life Action Figures instead?

What would someone think if they saw your extensive Luftwaffe and German tank collections? Would they presume you love the sinews of war, regard your indulgence as little more than a quirky hobby; or would they question why you’re so deep into symbols of Nazi might?

Or would you care at all, and this thread is ridiculous in the extreme? (Too many bloody questions!)

Honestly, I don’t know if this has any bearing at all on diecast collectors. Personally, I love Luftwaffe and Imperial Japanese planes, but that doesn’t make me a Nazi or a disciple of the Rising Sun. I happen to relish Soviet warbirds—especially Russian jets—but that doesn’t mean I'm a closet communist or Stalin devotee.

The fact is, I own nearly as many Allied tanks and planes as Japanese and German. In my case I’ve leavened things out so I’ve got a pretty good balance between the two sides. So I’m not bothered at all that I’ve amassed a sizable collection of Axis materiel. Not that I would give a puff ball what others think in any event.

OK, I'm through, you can breath again! Have at me!!! My metal body can stand up to tomato and egg peltings, but sometimes the goo and juice trickle into my innards and I get soggy. So be gentle!

[Cardinal]

Waay to reflective a post Gort - it makes my head hurt ... I'll have to post a response later that is worthy of your philosophical perspective .

(I suspect though that what we all share is a common respect for, and understanding of, the human martial tradition and the historical causal relationships that spawn military conflict resulting in the (voluntary and 'coerced') taking up of arms by those individuals who try to do what they perceive as their 'duty', irrespective of prevailing dogma or political ideology.)

[hworth18]

When painting the custom Captured Mustang for Eagles Intl., my wife asked me "Why are you painting a Nazi plane?"
I explained to her that most of the Luftwaffe and even most of the regular army were NOT Nazi's and didn't necessarily share the Nazi beliefs, but were doing what they thought was best for their country even if it was wrong. I am the first to admit that most of my collection is not Allied and I don't think that collecting Axis items is idolizing them unless it becomes an obsession, then that would probably be pushing it. Now, if I start wearing a Swastika armband, then that is an issue worthy of Jerry Springer.

I collect Axis stuff because it looks cool, is colorful and interesting, nothing more.

[brunowbe]

Originally Posted by hworth18

When painting the custom Captured Mustang for Eagles Intl., my wife asked me "Why are you painting a Nazi plane?"
I explained to her that most of the Luftwaffe and even most of the regular army were NOT Nazi's and didn't necessarily share the Nazi beliefs, but were doing what they thought was best for their country even if it was wrong. I am the first to admit that most of my collection is not Allied and I don't think that collecting Axis items is idolizing them unless it becomes an obsession, then that would probably be pushing it. Now, if I start wearing a Swastika armband, then that is an issue worthy of Jerry Springer.

I collect Axis stuff because it looks cool, is colorful and interesting, nothing more.

I think Harry said it better than I could. The vast majority of my small collection is of Luftwaffe aeroplanes. Why? Their aircraft look much more appealing and sinister to me. I don't collect them based on others' opinions, but on my own. My favorite aircraft happens to be the Bf 109, hence my collection has more of these than any other aircraft. If others do not like it or think me a Nazi, then they are ignorant and clearly do not know me very well. That being said, I have branched out into more Allied aircraft because I am coming to appreciate them even more after studying them and their accomplishments at the hands of Allied pilots.

[Hornchurch]

A mate of mine, who is an excellent model-maker (mainly Armour) & an encyclopaedic 'military' memory, as well as a fan of 'Century'-series Jets, et al, has ALWAYS had strong 'Nazi' tendencies, despite being British to the core (& the Grandson of a WW.1 soldier & his Uncle, a Royal Marine Commando).

Each year, he gets worse & is now (literally) 'obsessive' of the 12th SS Panzer Division.

This isn't just a 'fad'.

He was going to get SS slogans Tattooed on his body, back in the late 1980's - & NO, he isn't dim-witted; just obssessed.

Everyone who meets him is amazed at his high-level of intellegence & knowledge, yet his "dark-side" often surfaces.

Beats me, how he can be so English to the core, yet, obssessive Nazi


Last phone-call, he kept banging-on about the HitlerJugend -

Of ALL the units & Reg'ts in opposing us in WW.II , these are the one unit that I'd despise, despite however well they fought after Normandy.

Whenever THEY are mentioned, ALL I think of is Carpiquet Airfield; & how barbaric they were to the Canadian forces opposing them (& I'm VERY 'pro'-Canadian, as I've relatives there anyhow).

Though they AREN'T linked with the '12th SS'.....

I regard Hans Bolter (Tigers, Eastern-Front) & Ernst Barkmann as personal heroes of mine - but admiration, not obssession.

I'm only TOO aware that if I'd been born 40 years earlier, I'd be climbing into a Handley-Page Halifax, rather than an He.111 !!!!!!!

I've met numerous 'hardcore' Nazi disciples in my time = ALL English !!!!!!!!!!

Their respect & admiration went to the extreme - one mate spending Thousands of £ on 'SS' regalia in the '70's & '80's for battle 're-enactments', where actual physical-injuries took place thru over-exuberance against other 'enemy' re-enactors.
(the guy in Question, eventually sold ALL his accumulated stuff, married & then became a Born-Again Christian !!!!!!!!!)

I was even shocked to see a Dutch 'SS' Re-enactment "unit" pushing (other) members of the General-Public around, at one Beltring (Kent) display on the periphery of the main arena & I toyed with the Idea of me actually punching two of them - tempering it with the realisation that I'd get thrown out, after a Two-hour drive getting there if I did (had wife & kids w/me, at time) !!!!!!!!
It was obvious these 'SS' re-enactment *ankers, were taking themselves too-seriously.

Just three examples I've experienced, of (in this case, Nazi) "obssessives" in latterday society.

[Louie]

You are such a cool guy Gort. That's why I have chosen to use your likeness has the hood ornament on my 67 Impala...

Overdo them? Absolutely yes. I admired the German military more as a child from the old movies because they had cool uniforms and steeley faces and had neat weapons. As I grew older and could read and really understand the impact of the war my opinions of the weapons and snazzy uniforms changed little, but they themselves the symbols became more sinister to me. I saw the results of the Nazi war machine and things lost the gloss pretty quickly. They manufactured magnificent machines and dressed chic but I can't help now but cringe inside when i see the guy at the collectibles show with a booth full of Nazi flags daggers uniforms and other paraphernilia displayed for sale. The intentions may be just to sell historical items but to the guy walking down the aisles who only knows what he sees it may be disturbing. It would be no different than knowing someone who is passionate about snakes or skeletons and has them displayed in all forms around his home or office or booth i guess. Some may not understand and may be repulsed by these things.
History cannot be re-written or covered up it must be told and remembered. If it were Roman memorabilia maybe it would not even be noticed as much. I think the fact many of us may have had living family members directly involved in that conflict may still aggravate some old wounds. I live in the south (USA). I grew up in an area rich in Civil war history and as a child acted like a johnny Reb with cap firing musket and grey felt cap. I killed countless "blue bellies" in my imaginary skirmishes. Am i affected today when i see a huge rebel flag flying from a pole in a yard or stuck on the back of a big 4-wheeled truck? yes. Those guys may mean no harm but it is the symbolism that hate mongers like the KKK and skinheads have borrowed that took that nostalgia away for me and made me feel sorry for those who may still suffer as a result of those that perpetuate hate and use that flag for identification. The Nazi flag with the swastika is just colors and symbols ( like the bonnie blue Confederate stars and bars) but still it has alot of power. It's a cool looking flag, but the history is far too recent to be seen as just an identification symbol for a nation at war. The skinheads and KKK have seen to that too. I often wonder why some guys choose to be Waffen SS re-enactors and spend mega bucks on all the trappings. It could be they love history like me but deep in my gut they will always be suspect. That is just my nature. You can't re-enact without both sides but still I wonder more about SS over Wehrmacht. I am not a super sensitive person like that, but I have met survivors of both Nazi and Imperial Japanese atrocities and it makes the props a little less appealing to me. I would definitely call into question one who has all those political figures. I would be much more understanding if they were soldiers in uniform (like Dragons figures) because I have some of those as well as some G.I.s' to go with them. I just liked the m42 helmets and the schmeisser machine pistols the figures carry. if you walk into a guys house full of Stalin and Lenin stuff I am sure you would think to yourself what's that all about? I think there can be too much of anything with a terrible history attached to it that may border on obsession. machines I feel are alot different than flags and posters and ideological substances.

[brunowbe]

Originally Posted by Louie

if you walk into a guys house full of Stalin and Lenin stuff I am sure you would think to yourself what's that all about? I think there can be too much of anything with a terrible history attached to it that may border on obsession. machines I feel are alot different than flags and posters and ideological substances.

Funny you say that Louie, my late uncle used to have portraits of Lenin and Soviet propaganda and artwork all over his house. I believe he even had a copy of the Communist Manifesto as bathroom reading material next to the throne (toilet). When I was younger it would freak me out going over there. My mom (his sister) explained to me that when he went off to college some professor got him turned onto all of those Marxist, Leninist, Communist, and Socialist ideals. After that he became an Atheist and had Soviet sympathies. You wouldn't know it if you talked to him, but then again how many times during Thanksgiving does a family break out into a discussion of the plight of the proletariat against the evil business owners and capitalists. That being said, he was a very nice man. I also agree with you about the idea that the display of machines (in this case aircraft) do not remotely portray the idea of sympathetic feelings or is as creepy as a person that would be displaying portraits of leaders, flags, posters, etc. would.

[Hornchurch]

Louie, you are right.

Much of the 'stuff' is considered WAYYYYYY 'cooler'.

An MG.42 (de-act') commands more than Double what a Bren will fetch, price-wise (nearer x 3, actually !)

An MG.42 with it's (avg') cyclic-rate of 1.200 rounds per minute, which is like ripping-cloth & fearsome..... so good, in fact, that the current MG.3 is in use today, basically derived from it's infamous ancestor.

That's just one example.

The Dark Imagery of the Nazi soldiers, they're uniforms, they're sinister look & they're (often) superb equipment... it ALL adds-up to an understandable "draw" for the military~enthusiast.

I'm as guilty, to some degree, as the ONLY tank I've ever been inside, is a Panther Tank (Pz.kpfw.V). Despite the chance of going inside others, I've declined...... difference is though, I consider myself "level-headed" & 'balanced', unlike some others.

But, I CAN understand & see the fascination that others derive.

[PappyB]

To me, my collecting is extremely a-political. I don't collect a plane to celebrate the nationality it flew for and for the reasons it went to war -- but rather as a testament to the courage of the individual in the cockpit and a raw, unexplainable affinity for military aircraft in general. To this date, I don't understand why I am so interested -- there's not a single aviator in my family tree.

While I abhor the reasons that brought the German and Japanese aviators to bear arms, I can respect the feats accomplished by them -- though I admit sometimes my blood gets boiling reading about 'em. Such as the incident with Hartman at Ploesti where he shoots down several Mustangs, likely killing the pilots, and then bails out when he's boxed in, out of ammo, and running out of fuel -- and the allies let him live.

That said, it would likely be a bit harder for me to own a Kate if my grandfather was killed on the Arizona, as I know some members feel. And I understand that, too.

But also, to me, the books and models I have that are historical testaments to the allied aviators and their courage lose their meaning, context, and significance without the knowledge and representations of the forces that opposed them. It's a balance thing to me -- and again, a raw, unabashed affinity for just about anything that flies.

[Elmer]

Originally Posted by Cardinal

(I suspect though that what we all share is a common respect for, and understanding of, the human martial tradition and the historical causal relationships that spawn military conflict resulting in the (voluntary and 'coerced') taking up of arms by those individuals who try to do what they perceive as their 'duty', irrespective of prevailing dogma or political ideology.)

Lots of big words in there for a simple cuntry bumpkin' like me. What was that you said, Professor Cardo???