[parsig9]

Been reading alot of Irish history and well researched historical fiction the last few months and find myself torn up regarding my opinion of the man.....deeper than that; of right and wrong.
As an avid BOB reader and fan I have been inspired for years by the great man's leadership during those fateful days in 1940 and throughout the war. I went to London for a week in '01 and devoured all I could about the Blitz and Churchill and England.

Three years ago I went to western Ireland and Dublin. I took all the walking tours and listened with intent. Now I don't know what to think.... My recent reading has made me bitter and ashamed to be/have been a Churchill man.

I find his treatment of Ireland, especially since traveling there, Egypt and India to be brutal and despicable and that's tough for me as a RAF/BOB fanatic.
This is one of those pieces of Empire history that is not totally new to me, but new in the level of horror I'm getting it now that I'm digging deep for it.

I remember playing cowboys as a kid, pretending I was Custer too, and then I read about the removal of the Native Americans......

Is this just another rotten thing about being an adult?

[Cardinal]

Parsig9, I just finished writing up a rather profound piece on Churchill when I was logged out of the system. I'll try to summarise what I said before I was so rudely interrupted .

Although your disillusionment is understandable I would like to mention that, first and foremost, 'heroes' and 'leaders' are human beings irrespective of the pedestals on which we and society sometimes place them. They therefore make mistakes and are often shown to have 'feet of clay' when the clear light of historical analysis is harshly shone upon them (often by lesser individuals). Let's also reflect on the fact that opinions of yesteryear reflect their respective times and may often be viewed as inappropriate by the standards of today - Churchill strongly believed in the greatness and manifest destiny of the British people and their concept of 'Empire', even though today such views are clearly archaic.

In my opinion Churchill was a great man who fulfilled a destiny that enables us to enjoy many of the freedoms we take for granted today. He was a maverick and a genius who found himself in a time and place that enabled him to make a (positive) impact on history, notwithstanding his manifest shortcomings.

Early on, Churchill showed his leadership qualities when he was both a participant and observer (1899-1900) during the South African (Boer) War. As an 'embedded journalist' he showed both personal and moral courage, being unafraid of physical (and political) danger. By voicing his often unpopular views and opinions relating to the incompetence and stupidity that he regularly had cause to experience, he raised the ire of the British authorities (including military) and was often viewed as being a 'troublemaker' (even though he was usually right).

He was also an honourable individual who treated former enemies with the greatest respect as witnessed by his decades long friendship/association with the international statesman and former Prime Minister of South Africa, General/Field-Marshal Jan Smuts (Jan Smuts happened to have been one of the Boer officers [actually Attorney-General] who had interviewed Churchill when he was captured by Boer forces during the SA/Boer War and who was also the person largely responsible for ensuring South Africa's active participation in both World Wars on the side of the Allies). Churchill's legendary escape from Boer captivity (he was classified as a combatant, not civilian, by the Boers) also makes for interesting reading and shows that he was quite an 'action man' in his younger days (with an innate ability to lead and gain respect at all levels, from friend and foe alike).

Some interesting books on Churchill that I would recommend (among others), include In the footsteps of Churchill by Richard Holmes and the lesser known Churchill: Wanted Dead or Alive by his granddaughter, Celia Sandys.

[Old Crow]

Parsig, I think what Cardinal said eloquently expresses my views, as well.

I have always viewed Churchill as an imperfect man (though a great write/speaker) who nevertheless performed great acts and exhibited inspired leadership qualities during the darkest moments of the 20th century.

I tend to give him a pass on Ireland and India, not because he was necesarily right but because I think he sincerely thought he was looking after the best interests of England.

I found this story about Churchill and the Irish, told by his bodyguard, Eddie Murray, which I thought was pretty humorous: In the days when aircraft refueled in Shannon before flying the Atlantic, a Churchill flight landed there and Eddie Murray went to order some duty free Irish whisky for his Secret Service buddies in the United States. The Irishman at the counter said he'd box it up, and asked what name he should put on it? "Murray," he was told. When Murray returned to the counter to pick up his box, the man handed it to him saying he hoped he would enjoy it. "But can ye tell me, Mr. Murray, what's a man with a name like Murray doing working for an old bastard like Churchill?" As the flight resumed, Murray related the incident to Churchill, who thought it uproariously funny and told it to his wife, Clementine. About five minutes went by in silence and then suddenly Clementine exclaimed, in her high-pitched Scottish voice: "But he was wrong, Winston, he was quite wrong; you DO know who your father was!"

[Shamrock]

As an Irisman I would have two views on Churchhill. He was deeply involved in the Truce negotiations with Michael Collins etc which brought an end to almost 800 years of war. His support of Collins and the fledging Irish Free State was vital during the Civil War (De Valera took the opposing side) which inevitably followed. This resulted in the democratic wishes prevailing and the end of hostilities.

During WW2 Churchill was very belicose towards the Irish Free State. He wanted the return of the the Treaty Ports which the British had returned in 1938 as part of an agreement before the outbreak of war. We as a nation refused. However we were neutral totally in favour of the Allies. 150,000 Irishmen were fighting with British Forces, we allowed an air corridor through Co. Donegal to enable flying boats from Lough Erne (N.Ireland) to patrol the Atlantic. Most crashed aircraft and aircrew were returned immediately across the border to N.Ireland. These were some of the many ways in which we expressed our NEUTRALITY. Neutral my****!

My father who was 18 at the and in the Irish Army reserves had no doubt that the Germans were the real enemy and would have been tackled (probably like Poland) had they invaded. My grand father served for 4 years in France Royal Dublin Fusiliers) 1914 -1918 and was severly wounded although he survived.

Churchill mentioned the bravery of 'Paddy Finucane' in a House of Commons speech in 1948. IMHO De Valera (Irish Prime Minister) and Churchill did not have a good personal relationship. They were major protagonists in the Ango Irish Troubles 1916 -1922. I have in my possesion an amazing photograph of Douglas Bader and De Valera smiling and chatting when De Valera received him as a guest in Government Buildings in 1956!

Churchill's leadership (despite his many faults) saved Britain and Europe from almost certain slavery and persecution.

[jim]

Originally Posted by Shamrock

As an Irisman I would have two views on Churchhill. He was deeply involved in the Truce negotiations with Michael Collins etc which brought an end to almost 800 years of war. His support of Collins and the fledging Irish Free State was vital during the Civil War (De Valera took the opposing side) which inevitably followed. This resulted in the democratic wishes prevailing and the end of hostilities.

During WW2 Churchill was very belicose towards the Irish Free State. He wanted the return of the the Treaty Ports which the British had returned in 1938 as part of an agreement before the outbreak of war. We as a nation refused. However we were neutral totally in favour of the Allies. 150,000 Irishmen were fighting with British Forces, we allowed an air corridor through Co. Donegal to enable flying boats from Lough Erne (N.Ireland) to patrol the Atlantic. Most crashed aircraft and aircrew were returned immediately across the border to N.Ireland. These were some of the many ways in which we expressed our NEUTRALITY. Neutral my****!

My father who was 18 at the and in the Irish Army reserves had no doubt that the Germans were the real enemy and would have been tackled (probably like Poland) had they invaded. My grand father served for 4 years in France Royal Dublin Fusiliers) 1914 -1918 and was severly wounded although he survived.

Churchill mentioned the bravery of 'Paddy Finucane' in a House of Commons speech in 1948. IMHO De Valera (Irish Prime Minister) and Churchill did not have a good personal relationship. They were major protagonists in the Ango Irish Troubles 1916 -1922. I have in my possesion an amazing photograph of Douglas Bader and De Valera smiling and chatting when De Valera received him as a guest in Government Buildings in 1956!

Churchill's leadership (despite his many faults) saved Britain and Europe from almost certain slavery and persecution.

Very eloquently put Shamrock,

Despite all the problems between England and Ireland over the years I do not forget all those brave Irishmen that served in the British forces against the Nazis.
Churchill was a total believer in Empire so his reaction to the Irish attempts at home rule was to be expected. that was how it was then.
Thankfully good sense has prevailed and things look very promising now.
My best friend is married to a sweet girl from Sligo and i have met most of her family .

I have one complaint against the Irish, every time I go to one of her parties when all her family there I always finish the night being carried home!!

Boy do you Irish know to throw a party.

[swoop]

Parsig, Well researched fiction is, as stated by you, fiction. Truths and half truths are often composite to a story, often interwoven in time and place. Churchill was a leader who instilled hope, comfort and resolve in the people at that time. I know of this first hand. Listening with my Grandmother to his speeches on BBC radio broadcasts. No one but no one, in the worst hours of the German onslaught ever thought that they would prevail. Churchill gave us the courage and the willingness to see it through. No other in his place could have done it better.

[Shamrock]

Thanks for that Jim. There is a very good reason for your 'Irish' headaches. Irish spirit measures are in fact 1/3 larger than your 'effete' British ones! And our beer/stout is stronger. Trust me, I know as I must have shares in aspirin comanies by now!

[swoop]

The way you put it Shamrock, sounds right to me.

[Folgore]

Originally Posted by Shamrock

Thanks for that Jim. There is a very good reason for your 'Irish' headaches. Irish spirit measures are in fact 1/3 larger than your 'effete' British ones! And our beer/stout is stronger. Trust me, I know as I must have shares in aspirin comanies by now!

Now I know why I like Guinness and Jameson so much!