[Black 6]

Thanks a lot JY and Skunky - what little lung I have left I just coughed-up laughing at you two.

[RockJock]

I knew my comment was going to get you stirred up Black. BTW I hope your feeling better!!
When you say that the seller could put a reserve price on the item, what happens when the seller has no idea what his item is worth? They'll usually start it at a low price so if they were to receive an offer way above what they thought the item was worth why wouldn't they close the auction? But I would say in most cases when auctions are ended early the seller will take less than if he would of continued on with the it. Offers are only made to sellers because the buyer really doesn't want to compete with all the other collectors and end up not getting the item or having to paying top dollar for it.
Here's an instance. I just picked up a really rare WWII rigger made Army Air Corps flight helmet off eBay a few days ago by getting the seller to close the auction. The auction was just hours old and there was a bid of $30.00 on it. I knew that the seller had not a clue what the helmet was worth so I offered him $350 plus shipping. He jumped on it with both feet. He was tickled, he probably didn't think it would sell over $50 dollars. The only reason I offered him the $350 was because if the helmet would of ran for the duration it might have possibly brought a Grand. I would of had to compete with all the high dollars collectors for this helmet so I thought why not make an offer.
Now I know that you will be thinking that I have no ethics but I didn't put a gun to his head to sell it. I just made an offer and he took it. I have over 500 eBay transactions most all about purchasing WWII aviation items and I see it daily, offers being made under the table and sellers ending auctions. Maybe its not right by eBays standards but believe me this is how it goes down quit often.
I had to learn this game or have far less of a collection.

[Rush104]

Maybe eBay ought to start tracking the sellers who engage in this, and after a certain number of instances kick them off the site permanently. Same with the buyers.
In effect, eBay is being used to advertise an item, but then eBay is being bypassed (and losing commissions in the process) through these back door deals.
While this practice may not be illegal, it certainly IS dishonest. It undermines the good faith principle that eBay is based upon. How many of you who engage in this would be angry if it happened to you?

[KG_Jag]

Originally Posted by Rush104

Maybe eBay ought to start tracking the sellers who engage in this, and after a certain number of instances kick them off the site permanently. Same with the buyers.
In effect, eBay is being used to advertise an item, but then eBay is being bypassed (and losing commisions in the process) through these back door deals.
While this practice may not be illegal, it certainly IS dishonest. It undermines the good faith principle that eBay is based upon. How many of you who engage in this would be angry if it happened to you?

I would be and believe that it has happened to me as a bidder. I don't make or take under the table offers during an auction.

As an EBay seller my wife received just such an under the table offer. She declined it because it is wrong, unfair to those who had placed bids and a violation the rules under which she agree to list her item. She did so although at the time she believed it would have generated a significantly higher price than if she continued with the auction. Parenthetically it turned out that the final auction price was a good deal higher than the off the books offer due to late bids, which are quite common on EBay.

[Cruver Collecter]

Have had several under the table offers on eBay, but have turned all down. First it is a bit on the unethical side and second, the under the table offers always seemed to be somebody trying to pick up something on the cheap. Letting the auction run its course has always been more profitable, and honest too.

[RockJock]

Originally Posted by Rush104

Maybe eBay ought to start tracking the sellers who engage in this, and after a certain number of instances kick them off the site permanently. Same with the buyers.
In effect, eBay is being used to advertise an item, but then eBay is being bypassed (and losing commissions in the process) through these back door deals.
While this practice may not be illegal, it certainly IS dishonest. It undermines the good faith principle that eBay is based upon. How many of you who engage in this would be angry if it happened to you?

I really don't think eBay can do much about this. After all it is the sellers item and how do they really know if the seller has changed his mind and doesn't want to sell it anymore or if the item really was lost or broken. And they have no way of tracking the buyer if the auction is closed early because no eBay transaction took place.
This has happened to me. When an item that I am watching is closed early and I was really wanting it I will contact the seller and offer my top dollar. Sometimes they answer back and sometimes they don't.
As far a being dishonest, I don't think that making a seller an offer as being dishonest. Maybe unethical according to eBay but not dishonest.
I can't see this as much of a problem with diecast planes costing $25 to $100 dollars. But if you were a collector where the items can cost in the hundreds or thousands, I would bet anything that you would be on board playing the old eBay game too.

[Black 6]

[quote=RockJock;138740]I knew my comment was going to get you stirred up Black. BTW I hope your feeling better!!

Thanks for the "get well" wish Rock - much needed and much appreciated. Your comment is welcome too and I didn't mean to come-off snarky or "stirred-up" in a bad way (hence my comment about being crabby from the flu).

When you say that the seller could put a reserve price on the item, what happens when the seller has no idea what his item is worth?

Good question. I came up with the following analogy which I hope works for my point (it seems to in my present state anyway so feel free to let me know if it just incoherent rambling). I stop at a garage sale and find several military collectibles for sale. The garage sale is by an elderly woman selling-off her late husband's collection. An item that catches my attention is an old leather flight jacket complete with "nose art" paint on its back. When I ask how much she wants for it, she answers she has no idea why I would want an old jacket, but comes up with a $20.00 price.

So do I say "DEAL!", snag the item and count her off as a sucker while I drive away with a great deal? For me personally, no. Not that I wouldn't want to score a great deal, but because I would never feel right about the circumstance I got it by. Obviously the seller, in this case, had no idea what she had and what it was worth. As such I wouldn't feel right taking advantage of her (btw, the gender of the seller doesn't change the point of this example, man or woman I wouldn't do a deal like this). So, as you did in your example, I would offer a fair price (and probably let her know of other options she might try to sell the item(s)) If I was able to get the jacket at that point then I am very happy. So no argument here my friend.

But here's where we part a bit in the case of the Ebay auction. The seller has a few hundred transactions under his belt already. He also knows what the item is worth as he says as much in the text of his auction. So I don't think we can say he made a mistake in undervaluing his item. Also, he knows both Ebay and the Internet well enough to create auction listings and conduct transactions so I would guess he is capable of doing research into the value of the Hurricane. Thus I think he knows full-well what he was doing.

Now I know that you will be thinking that I have no ethics but I didn't put a gun to his head to sell it.

I do apologize for that as it wasn't a shot at you personally Rock and hope you didn't take it as such. I know such things do occur and don't mean to come off as a Boy Scout.

In the case of this auction, and the other I mentioned, my BIG gripe is the premature ending of the auction while bids, placed in good faith, were active. If it was a Reserve auction, or no bids in play, then I would not have even mentioned the incident. But it was a regular auction, by a seller that should know better (based on his own words and profile history), and with active bids that cause me to cry FOUL!

I also think that Ebay should come up with a better way to communicate why an auction ended early under such circumstances. Something more meaningful than the vague "lost or broken" comment they currently allow. Also, auctions ended early by the seller, should become part of their profile history IMHO.

[RockJock]

Originally Posted by Rush104

Maybe eBay ought to start tracking the sellers who engage in this, and after a certain number of instances kick them off the site permanently. Same with the buyers.
In effect, eBay is being used to advertise an item, but then eBay is being bypassed (and losing commissions in the process) through these back door deals.
While this practice may not be illegal, it certainly IS dishonest. It undermines the good faith principle that eBay is based upon. How many of you who engage in this would be angry if it happened to you?

I really don't think eBay can do much about this. After all it is the sellers item and how do they really know if the seller has changed his mind and doesn't want to sell it anymore or if the item really was lost or broken. And they have no way of tracking the buyer if the auction is closed early because no eBay transaction took place.
This has happened to me. When an item that I am watching is closed early and I was really wanting it I will contact the seller and offer my top dollar. Sometimes they answer back and sometimes they don't.
As far a being dishonest, I don't think that making a seller an offer as being dishonest. Maybe unethical according to eBay but not dishonest.
I can't see this as much of a problem with diecast planes costing $25 to $100 dollars. But if you were a collector where the items can cost in the hundreds or thousands, I would bet anything that you would be on board playing the old eBay game too.

[KG_Jag]

Originally Posted by RockJock

I can't see this as much of a problem with diecast planes costing $25 to $100 dollars. But if you were a collector where the items can cost in the hundreds or thousands, I would bet anything that you would be on board playing the old eBay game too.

So it's the amount of gain or loss that justifies bad behavior! Yes, I'll call dishonest and unethical--at the low end. I'll bet that you're OK with people cutting in line in front of you too.

If you don't like the EBay rules, don't use it.

By the way, you would lose your bet. My ethics and reputation, are worth far more than "thousands" and are not for sale.

[Biggie]

I gotta agree here, you can not hold Ebay responsible. I work for an Auto Parts Company, we sell on Ebay , two of our own websites, and over the counter to local customers and since the company is kinda big we also wholesale to many smaller dealers. Once in a while something will get sold via one of those ways and if it is on Ebay we need to remove it, if there happens to be bids then oh well. We dont like doing it, but it happens, it also happens that when an item is the last one, but can not be found, inventory in any company is never perfect.

If the seller seems small, like not a business and has a record of ending auctions all the time, then Ebay might me able to issue warnings or something, so you dont get too many dishonest sellers on there.

I myself love Ebay, I have gotten many a great deal and many not so good on price , but something I could not find any other way. I also have my income to thank Ebay for, since I do most of this companies Ebay business. To the tune of $35,000 a month in Sales Volume on Ebay. And we only do it part time, around 150 auctions at any given time.

Just my two cents on this topic.

Biggie

Originally Posted by RockJock

I really don't think eBay can do much about this. After all it is the sellers item and how do they really know if the seller has changed his mind and doesn't want to sell it anymore or if the item really was lost or broken. And they have no way of tracking the buyer if the auction is closed early because no eBay transaction took place.
This has happened to me. When an item that I am watching is closed early and I was really wanting it I will contact the seller and offer my top dollar. Sometimes they answer back and sometimes they don't.
As far a being dishonest, I don't think that making a seller an offer as being dishonest. Maybe unethical according to eBay but not dishonest.
I can't see this as much of a problem with diecast planes costing $25 to $100 dollars. But if you were a collector where the items can cost in the hundreds or thousands, I would bet anything that you would be on board playing the old eBay game too.