[timbo]

Was it any worse than the Fairey Battle Mo?

[MoMo]

Was it any worse than the Fairey Battle Mo?
Timbo

Certainly the Battle gained a very dubious reputation in the fight against the German onslaught in France. It has to be said, however, that the Battles were ordered to attack ground targets ( bridges over the Meuse ) to stem the tide of the German attack on France, and that they were mainly unescorted by fighters when they attacked. This was the legacy of the " Bomber Always Gets Through" mentality which dominated the planning of air forces in the inter-war years.

Also, the Battles had to dodge ground ack-ack thrown up by the German army. This was required from an aircraft which was unwieldy, relied on a rear gunner for defence and had an elongated cockpit which divorced the two-man crew from any feeling of unity, and was shaped like a coffin.

Given that the Battles had a max. speed speed of about 250 MPH, they had no chance against the fighters, and when they attacked ground targets they presented the aerodynamic characteristics of a low-flying brick! They were mauled in France. Formally on the list as a front-line aircraft until September, 1940, they were, in reality, finished as a jabo even before the Battle of Britain started.

The Battles commenced a new role as advanced trainers and target tugs, together with the Defiants, after the Battle of Britain had been won. Some Battles were kitted out with Bristol turrets to serve as trainers for bomber air-gunners in Canada.



Specifications

Wing Span: 16.5 m (54 ft)

Length: 12.9 m (42 ft 4 in)

Height: 4.7 m (15 ft 6 in)

Weight, Empty: 3,015 kg (6,647 lb)

Weight, Gross: 4,895 kg (10,792 lb)

Cruising Speed: 322 km/h (200 mph)

Max Speed: 406 km/h (252 mph)

Rate of Climb: 1,520 m (5,000 ft) / 4 min 6 sec

Service Ceiling: ,620 m (25,000 ft)

Range: 1,609 km (1,000 mi)

Power Plant: one Rolls-Royce Merlin III, 1,030 hp, Vee engine

The Breda 65s were so pathetic that Gladiators could give them a pasting! Read what John Guttman said about it :

When Italy entered World War II in 6/40, the Regia Aeronautica had 154 Breda Ba.65s in its inventory, including 119 fitted with Fiat A80 RC41 engines and a small number of Ba.65bis two-seaters with a manually operated 12.7mm machine gun in the rear gunner's pit rather than the Breda L turret. Owing to the unsatisfactory performance of the Fiat A80 RC41 under desert conditions, all Ba.65s with that power plant were re-engined with the Isotta-Fraschini-built Gnôme- Rhône 14K before being committed to North Africa. In 9/39, Ba.65s equipped the 101st and 102nd Squadrons of the 19th Group of the 5th Stormo, the 159th and 160th Squadrons of the 12th Group, and 167th and 168th Squadrons of the 16th Group, both components of the 50th Stormo. Soon after Italy entered the war on 6/10/40, however, it became clear that the large single-engine attack bomber was as ungainly and vulnerable to enemy fighters as was its British contemporary, the Fairey Battle. During the Italian invasions of France and Greece, Ba.65s were conspicuous by their absence. By mid- 1940, the only Ba.65s in a position to see any combat were those of the 50th Stormo in North Africa, and even they ended up contributing little to Italian operations there. The principal units involved were the 159th Squadron and the 160th Squadron. Usually their missions involved flying about 150 miles to attack British tanks, armored cars and other vehicles from altitudes of about 1,000 feet. Due to a shortage of high-explosive bombs, however, the Bredas usually carried incendiary bombs that caused little destruction on rocky ground or in sand, which tended to contain the fires they caused. Steady attrition, a shortage of spare parts and a realization by the Italian army that the Ba.65s were not really an effective weapon resulted in the replacement of the Bredas in the 160th Squadron with the Fiat C.R.32 quater, a close-support fighter-bomber adaptation of the 1932-vintage C.R.32 biplane fighter. The embarrassing superiority of the C.R.32quater over its supposedly more modern monoplane contemporary was underlined on 8/4/40. Six Ba.65s of the 159th Squadron attacked British vehicles at Bir Taib el Esem, while six Fiat C.R.32s of the 160th Squadron waited 3,000 feet above to follow up their strike. The Bredas were about to make their third and last strafing run when they encountered a Westland Lysander of No. 208 Squadron, escorted by four Gloster Gladiator biplane fighters of No. 80 Squadron. The Gladiators promptly attacked the Bredas downing two of them. At that point, however, the C.R.32s dove on the British fighters, claiming three of the Gladiators. The fourth Gladiator was damaged but returned to its base

[Shawn 507]

Not sure if it counts as kit, but the whole Glider concept proved too costly. While wonders were accomplished in the CBI with gliders. When it came to Europe, what a waste! But it did get the needed heavy stuff in for the Paratroopers, albeit at a huge cost. Those glider riders would have been better off jumping.
- Shawn

[Aircrafty]

Originally Posted by MoMo

THE PANJANDRUM :

This is probably not the most uselessly dangerous piece of WW" kit invented by the Boffins from ideas submitted to them by the terminably imaginative, however, it has to come close!

It was designed to use rockets to propel itself up beaches or across fields and touch off mines as it rolled over them. Highly unstable, and prone to veer off to one side and wobble uncertainly as it gyrated to a stop while rockets exploded round the rims, it was liable to kill more of its operators than the enemy!

Hi MoMo, I recall seeing a film on this some time ago, but it was then described as a method to get about 1 ton of explosive up against the large sea-walls in France for the D-Day invasion. It was meant to cartwheel out of the landing craft and speed up to the wall and explode making a breach for tanks and infantry to get thru. But I suspect one ton of HE would have made a rather deep hole I remember in the film that one or two rockets came off the thing when it fell over and that dog in the pic you have there took off after it down the beach.

Here's a link to more recent info on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panjandrum

[jim]

Originally Posted by Aircrafty

Hi MoMo, I remember in the film that one or two rockets came off the thing when it fell over and that dog in the pic you have there took off after it down the beach.

Here's a link to more recent info on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panjandrum

That dog was the great great grandad of my dog.

[MoMo]

Thanks for the link, Aircrafty.

Jim, is that true about your dog, or is this a wind-up?

If it's true, then you should rename your dog Rocket, because it's great, great, grandfather ran like one!

You can see the actual film if you have a copy of " The World at War ".

[jim]

Hi MO, I dont know if that dog was related to mine but if not it should be.

My dog picks fights with electric fences and that dog chases after a cartwheel with a ton of explosives at its center.
There must be similar genetics at work there.

My friend had a dog with an ingrowing tail, he had to look up its bum to see if it was happy.

[MoMo]

Hi MO, I dont know if that dog was related to mine but if not it should be.

My dog picks fights with electric fences and that dog chases after a cartwheel with a ton of explosives at its center.
There must be similar genetics at work there.

My friend had a dog with an ingrowing tail, he had to look up its bum to see if it was happy.
Jim

Now, if Skunky had an in-growing scent gland, would he piss himself off?

[timbo]

Originally Posted by Shawn 507

Not sure if it counts as kit, but the whole Glider concept proved too costly. While wonders were accomplished in the CBI with gliders. When it came to Europe, what a waste! But it did get the needed heavy stuff in for the Paratroopers, albeit at a huge cost. Those glider riders would have been better off jumping.
- Shawn

Disagree with you there Shawn. Gliders allowed moderately heavy equipment to be brought in (Jeeps, artillery, anti-tank weapons) that would have been impossible to air transport any other way (Both Horsa and Hamilcar). Also allowed precision airborne attacks to be carried out delivering a large number of troops to the exact same place at the same time (Pegasus Bridge). The record or air dropping paratroops on to the drop zone was not good, scattering them all to hell.

[jim]

Originally Posted by timbo

Disagree with you there Shawn. Gliders allowed moderately heavy equipment to be brought in (Jeeps, artillery, anti-tank weapons) that would have been impossible to air transport any other way (Both Horsa and Hamilcar). Also allowed precision airborne attacks to be carried out delivering a large number of troops to the exact same place at the same time (Pegasus Bridge). The record or air dropping paratroops on to the drop zone was not good, scattering them all to hell.

True to a point but a dangerous occupation piloting those gliders. So many of them broke up on landing and killed the crews.

I suppose they were expendable in the big picture but I think those men deserve a mention. Often they had to grab a gun and join in the fighting after landing.