[FormerViperDriver]

Originally Posted by Aircrafty

Ahhh the old Dresden question, as if that is the proof for all his arguements. The simple but less known answer to this is that both the RAF and USAAF bombed Dresden but only the RAF could find it in the dark: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing...n_World_War_II

The USAAF bombed the industrial areas in/around Dresden, the RAF bombed Dresden. A bit of a difference, I think.

FVD

PS: I'm defnitely not bringing up Dresden as a moral issue. I have no problems with that part, and definitely will not jump on the "was Dreden necessary" bandwagon. I'm only making an operational effectiveness point.

[VMF115]

Originally Posted by FormerViperDriver

The USAAF bombed the industrial areas in/around Dresden, the RAF bombed Dresden. A bit of a difference, I think.

FVD

You bet me to it...

[Aircrafty]

Originally Posted by bsmith13

Aircrafty and I have had this particular discussion before. I got tired of being told I was a victim of American military propoganda, so I stopped replying.

Aircrafty, please site your sources for the statement "Investigations proved that American daylight pattern bombing was no more accurate than night time bombing by individual RAF aircraft attacking via ground looking radar methods."

Bombing accuracy
In general, bombing accuracy by the RAF and the USAAF during WWII was rather poor. And in hindsight attacks by two engined bombers such as the Mosquito at low levels (with fighter escort) would have more precision, more efficiency and prove less costly in allied lives.

Most of the American bombers used the Norden bombsight which was less accurate than the Sperry. Consequently rather than dropping their bombs into the often touted "pickle barrel" the USAAF bombs were lucky to get within several miles, making their efforts no more accurate than the RAF night time bombing. The Norden was not designed for medium to high level operation and not suited to changes in direction and altitudes etc common in combat use.

Here's a couple of links on the Norden: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norden_bombsight
http://thevaluesell.com/images/LSearle_bombsight.pdf

You can find other accuracy details via google but a specific book on the subject is: Strategic Bombing by the United States in World War II: The Myths and the Facts by Stewart Halsey Ross.


Radar use
The RAF Pathfinder aircraft were equiped with H2S radar that allowed them to identify targets at night even with cloud cover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H2S_radar

Btw, after the Pathfinders had dropped their target indentification flares and parachute delayed illuminators the targets were almost as bright as daylight.

[Aircrafty]

Originally Posted by VMF115

Warrior his input help formulate Line backer 1 and 2...He fought for the aircrews, he disliked what the seen and was part of many who tried to change the thinking of how the air war was fought over the skies of Vietnam…he did his country a great service…so why did you say he should have retired earlier.????/
I think I will have a sip of that beer now.

Yeah, I was out of line there with that personal attack on your relation. Can I use the I have had several beers already excuse

[VMF115]

Originally Posted by Aircrafty

Yeah, I was out of line there with that personal attack on your relation. Can I use the I have had several beers already excuse

It's all cool, but now you must your self. Just kidding

[Aircrafty]

Originally Posted by VMF115

About the lack of Flack discussion.
My great uncles said that the Lancaster’s liquid cooled engines where venerable to flack damage. And was one of many reason they suffered heavy losses.

The Merlin was a terrific engine but its archiles heel was the liquid coolant required together with carburetor fueling. Btw, my father flew in Lancasters in RAAF 460 Squadron and later RAF 156 Pathfinder Squadron, so I guess I'm a bit sensitive about critical comments about the Lancaster and the relative safety of night bombing. 460 Squadron suffered approx 60% casualty rate, which doesn't sound very safe to me.

[VMF115]

Originally Posted by Aircrafty

The Merlin was a terrific engine but its archiles heel was the liquid coolant required together with carburetor fueling. Btw, my father flew in Lancasters in RAAF 460 Squadron and later RAF 156 Pathfinder Squadron, so I guess I'm a bit sensitive about critical comments about the Lancaster and the relative safety of night bombing. 460 Squadron suffered approx 60% casualty rate, which doesn't sound very safe to me.

Its still a good warbird,,,besides two words say's it all "Operation Chastise"

[Captain Eddie]

Originally Posted by Old Crow

Here are some interesting statistics to chew on. RAF bomber sorties in WW2 totaled 754,818 and total bombers lost totaled 9,949, while USAAF bomber sorties totaled 687,462 with bomber plane losses of 11,965. (From US Strategic Bombing Survey: Statistical Appendix to Overall report (European War) (Feb 1947) table 1

Since this seems to have partially morphed into a discussion about B-17 versus B-24, here is a link to an academic analysis of this sub-issue:

http://www.uk-us.org/stinet/warproduction.pdf

Here is an article from Air Force magazine (online) with an interesting discussion of the overrated issue in microcosm: B-17 versus B-24

http://www.afa.org/magazine/Oct2006/1006bomber.asp

Thanks for sharing these links, Old Crow, very interesting reads!

[Aircrafty]

Originally Posted by FormerViperDriver

The USAAF bombed the industrial areas in/around Dresden, the RAF bombed Dresden. A bit of a difference, I think.

You may like to think that was the case, but by that time the USAAF had also adopted area bombing. Here's an article with references relevant to Dresden and USAAF bombing accuracy: http://www.michaelcalderonscall.com/...BombSight.html

[FormerViperDriver]

Originally Posted by Aircrafty

You may like to think that was the case, but by that time the USAAF had also adopted area bombing. Here's an article with references relevant to Dresden and USAAF bombing accuracy: http://www.michaelcalderonscall.com/...BombSight.html

With those kinds of "sources," I guess you can "prove" anything! Let's get serious, here.

The USAAF raids on Dresden were clearly aimed at the railroad yards in particular. The USAAF never went away from "precision" bombing against military/industrial targets. Again, this is in every history book. There may have been the occasional exception (where eaxctly?), but the doctrine never changed.

The "precision" may not have been what it was touted to be (no argument from me there), but to imply that the RAF was better at night (with H2S or otherwise) is a total laugh. And BTW, the use of H2S was exploited by the Luftwaffe which designed gear to home on to its signal and helped find/track RAF bombers more easily.

FVD