[TopHat]

Originally Posted by Old Crow

....but I think the view of many constitutional scholars, and many Supreme Court decisions, is that the U.S. system of government is, in fact, founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

No doubt it was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

[MoMo]

WW2 started in 1942??? I always thought that it had started in 1914.......

" History is bunk ! " ( Ford ) " Ford is history ! " ( Toyota )

They haven't shown it here, yet. However, the BBC will probably go with it because of Ken's track record on the ACW and Jazz, Coney Island, etc. I like the documentary approach, and his efforts are usually well researched.

However, wait for the howls of protest which will rise from these shores when it becomes clear that the war started with " Pearl Harbour ". I'll keep ya posted !

Just to keep you informed, WW2 is not taught in History Classes anymore ( too remote ! )

Politics have long dictated that since the political world and the business world are trying to unite Europe, the war should be buried along with the dead. Sic transit........! The French are surprised when you tell them that they were colaborationists who rounded up the enemies of Hitler. The Dutch and Belgians are shocked to discover how many of their young men became SS recruits.

in the Far East, Japanese history cites the war as an " Unfortunate Incident " while young Japanese don't even know that it happened ( except that the Americans dropped a bomb on them because they would not leave China or Manchuria ).

It's all about more than history, it's more about Big Brother. For most politicians, WW2 is little more than an inconvenient incident.

It's up to us to tell it like we see it !

[DADoser]

Originally Posted by TopHat

No doubt it was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

Yeah, I keep waiting for some "right" wing Christian group to advocate putting Christ's actual words in a court house - i.e. The Sermon on the Mount; or "Whatever you do to the least of my brothers, you do to me"; Don't sue your brother; Love your enemy; Don't even be angry at your brother; or ANY New testament quote on forgiveness/mercy/etc.

How many of the actual 10 Commandments are against modern American law?
2? 3 (but only if bearing false witness in under oath.) Our system is only based on 2.5 of the actual 10 commandments?

If we were based on judeo-Christian values - wouldn't we stone adulturers? not touch menstrating women? outlaw unclean foods?

We were founded on the ideas of the ENLIGHTENMENT using God's natural law to give moral authority. Not so much on Judeo-Christian values. Maybe Hammurabi's code should get a mention or 2.

I'm NOT advocating "forgiving" criminals and letting them walk away, HOWEVER, we do lean toward the Old Testament Judeo-/ wrath of God side when it comes to how Right wing Christians view justice. Its a hybrid that misses the point of the Kingdom of God that Jesus taught and brought through his ressurection.

In a Christian Nation.....
Abortion would not be an issue, because there would be none. (No need to legislate that)
And with an honest look at scripture - i.e. Christian communities in Acts - we would probably live under a communist economic system.
Socialized Medicine/Universal Health Care??? (Whatever you do to the least...you do to me.)
Illegal immigration??? (Don't see Jesus - or Paul - too hung up on nationalities or borders. Especially when it comes to helping out "the least.")

"The last shall be first and the first shall be last."???????????????????????????
"Love your neighbor as yourself" (I want that incribed in Federal Buildings.)

Back to this book:
"American Gospel: God, the Founding Fathers, and the Making of a Nation" by Jon Meacham.
I've not read it, but I did see the author in several interviews. Meachen stated that the idea of a Christian Nation is not a theological possibility - (based on the New Testament)

What I find interesting - an honest reading of Romans 13: 1-8 seems to put the American Founding Fathers squarely on the side of rebelling against God. Just a thought to ponder.


Now that we've gone completely off topic.........

[Old Crow]

Just to keep you informed, WW2 is not taught in History Classes anymore ( too remote ! )

Here in California, one of my kids took History last year as a High School sophomore and was taught fairly extensively about WW2. In fact, for a project he built (2) 21st Century 1/32 planes (Corsair and Zero) and we mounted them on the Guadalcanal base I robbed from Corgi's dogfight set. The models are still displayed in the teacher's classroom.

[TopHat]

Originally Posted by DADoser

If we were based on judeo-Christian values - wouldn't we stone adulturers? not touch menstrating women? outlaw unclean foods?

To me, the phrase "Judeo-Christian principles" means a philosophy that determined there existed good as well as evil, and there was something more important than self.

The behaviors which you describe as "values" seem to be more appropriately described as outdated customs.

[DADoser]

Originally Posted by TopHat

To me, the phrase "Judeo-Christian principles" means a philosophy that determined there existed good as well as evil, and there was something more important than self.
The behaviors which you describe as "values" seem to be more appropriately described as outdated customs.

I think you just made the point I was trying to get at.

The Founding Fathers were "Sons of the Enlightenment;" Deists; Philosophers who founded this nation on enlightenment philosophy as opposed to Judeo-Christian principles. I think, they too, saw a lot of the outlawed behaviors in the Bible (NT included) as "outdated customs." (Even with this "founding perspective" they were also members of Christian congregations. How devout or "righteous" they were - I have no idea. But as we see later in U.S. history during "The Great Awakening"; we see folks turning to Christianity and coming to the conclusion that a Christian could not own slaves...if they were following the principles of Jesus' teachings.)

Fascinating discussion. I'm not trying to intentionally irritate anyone - just driven by my passion for the subject - Restoration and early Christianity/U.S. History/Government. 9/11 and the divisive political climate has really made me study and meditate in this area over the past 6 years. Its a subject I've read and thought about....a lot. And its forced me to look at scripture in a fresh, non-American (Worldly) biased way.

Take care -

[Merritec]

Originally Posted by timbo

Good for him, but in my experience he is probably the exception rather than the rule. Where I built model kits, read WWII comics + stories and re-enacted the major WWII campaigns in my back yard, my kids are more interested in Star wars, playing computer games and fantasy rather than history. Unfortunately I think to a certain extent it's a sign of the times. These events are just too distant for them to comprehend. There is no one surviving in my family who fought, and only my wife's uncle on her side. Also museums don't have the instamatic thrill factor that they have come to expect from amusement parks and other forms of entertainment.

I know my son is a rarity as well but...
My 8 yr old can identify all the major aircraft and tanks and their relative strengths and weaknesses. He loves anything WWII and loves to just sit and talk about the war. He can tell you where the major battles took place and who won. He actually likes me to read from Historical text books. His favourate is one called Maps of WWII which is self explanitory and shows progree of battles as well as mapped opponents.

I think a lot of the education our children get, needs to come from the parents.

Brings tears to his eyes when I talk about my Grandfather (his Great Grandfather) being a Spitfire Pilot defending England, and my Great uncle who was a fight fighter Mosquito pilot.

PS, he loves computer games, but they are mostly WWII bases, and he loves going to War museums.

[TopHat]

Originally Posted by DADoser

I think you just made the point I was trying to get at.

The Founding Fathers were "Sons of the Enlightenment;" Deists; Philosophers who founded this nation on enlightenment philosophy as opposed to Judeo-Christian principles. I think, they too, saw a lot of the outlawed behaviors in the Bible (NT included) as "outdated customs." (Even with this "founding perspective" they were also members of Christian congregations. How devout or "righteous" there were - I have no idea. But as we see later in U.S. history during "The Great Awakening"; we see folks turning to Christianity and coming to the conclusion that a Christian could not own slaves...if they were following the principles of Jesus' teachings.)

No doubt that Franklin was a creature of the Enlightenment ... and a deist. However, I'm not sure that the core Judeo-Chrsitian principles (as opposed to dogma) are at odds with this. Franklin wrote the following in a letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale, in response to a question about his (Franklin's) views on religion:

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble...." (Carl Van Doren. Benjamin Franklin. New York: The Viking Press, 1938, p. 777.)

[bsmith13]

I will chuck in my $.02:

All of the Founding Fathers agreed that men should be self-governing. This was a huge gamble at the time, as the reason most governments were in power is because they had the military power to force their subjects to do their will. As the federal government was weak for quite a long time, the FF were depending on people to act lawfully; there was no way the federal government could "force" american citizenry to keep the peace and uphold the law. In Jefferson's and Madison's minds, there would be three foundations of public behavior that would allow this:

1. Public virtue of citizens
2. Private virtue of citizens
3. Public laws for the good of american society, reinforced by punishment as defined in the legal code for law-breaking.

While I fully acknowledge that Enlightenment played a huge role in creating the government of the United States, I feel duty bound to point out that the Founding Fathers were depending on each citizen acting in accordance with some kind of moral code in order to allow the society and the government to run without anarchy. At the time, I would be willing to bet that most Americans had received whatever moral code they had by virtue of "Judeo-Christian" teachings and/or values.

[Captain Eddie]

Originally Posted by DADoser

I would NOT indite all "conservatives" as being guilty of trying to revise History "from the Right." (Just as I would not indite ALL "liberals" of the same.)

I apologise if I came across as thinking that, DA. I was just throwing my 2 cents in is all!