[mikeb1958]

Originally Posted by DADoser

(Most) High school students are required to take U.S. History (typically their Jr. year.). Most colleges/universities DO NOT require a U.S. History class in order to graduate.

Here in Florida it is manitory that you take a foreign language (very hard to find a 'French" or " German" class since it is mostly 90%+ spanish.) both in High School and 2 semisters just to get a AA degree. So what is the deal with that? Back to "history" I say and not be forcused on being PC correct! Hear that Dragon??? But tail swazis on the WWII German aircraft please!

[timbo]

Originally Posted by TopHat

With all of the revisionist history the liberal/PC crowd loves, is it any wonder the kids today don't know US history? A prime example is that goon who used to be the head honcho at the Smithsonian Air & Space, the one who actually designed an exhibit which blamed the US for starting WWII (at least in the PTO). I mean really.....

Here we go - Labels again!!! Goes both ways I'm afraid - Just look at the School text books some right wing Japanese organizations are try to put out, or the holocaust denial that are old Iranian friend and neo-nazi's are trying to imply.

Any manipulation of historical facts for a political agenda is wrong - no matter what the stripe of the person/organization doing it. Unfortunately how do you bridge this with some legitimate research that might turn established rationale on it head due to newly released facts that could have been kept hidden for the last 50 years? You can bet our view of the Civil war is very different from that held in the 20's/30's.

My experience of Kids and history, is that it's taught in such a mind numbing format. I loved history, but I have to say I didn't learn a lot from school, I probably knew more than the teacher. I don;t think Kids generally are taught not the revisionist stuff, as this is at a much higher level of reason. Kids tend to be learning dates and events, not the reasoning or cause and effect behind such events.

[Captain Eddie]

Originally Posted by timbo

Here we go - Labels again!!! Goes both ways I'm afraid - Just look at the School text books some right wing Japanese organizations are try to put out, or the holocaust denial that are old Iranian friend and neo-nazi's are trying to imply.

Any manipulation of historical facts for a political agenda is wrong - no matter what the stripe of the person/organization doing it.

Timbo, I'm not trying to enter what appears to be the start of a flame war here, but I have to respectfully disagree with one thing I think you are saying. I know nothing of the "right wing" Japanese organizations you refer to, so I have no comment on that. But I really hope you are not equating the conservative movement in the US of A with our "Iranian friend" or the neo-nazi's. They are definitly NOT conservative in any way like conservatives here in the United States. So, if it "goes both ways", it would be a good idea to provide better examples than those.

[TopHat]

Originally Posted by timbo

My experience of Kids and history, is that it's taught in such a mind numbing format. I loved history, but I have to say I didn't learn a lot from school, I probably knew more than the teacher. I don;t think Kids generally are taught not the revisionist stuff, as this is at a much higher level of reason. Kids tend to be learning dates and events, not the reasoning or cause and effect behind such events.

Not meaning to start a so-called "flame war" here, but I'd like to have some examples of right-wing revisionism in the USA.

I was fortunate in that one of my history teachers was very hands-on and took the class to civil war re-inactments and did projects that helped to bring history to life, so to speak. And these lessons went beyond reciting dates and names....

Of course, re-inactments are now deemed bad because the participants may be wearing an offensive uniform or bearing a flag with an offensive symbol, so I guess that's not a good thing to expose children to any longer.....

[STARMAN 352ND]

Let's keep it nice in here .........
I really like this show they have on PBS and i might just pick it up on DVD.....But it's a little pricey right now to
get the set.
JP

[DADoser]

Originally Posted by TopHat

Not meaning to start a so-called "flame war" here, but I'd like to have some examples of right-wing revisionism in the USA. .....

If one does not see ANY right-wing revisionism in the USA, then that would show where one stands on the political spectrum. Same would go for one who sees no Left wing revisionism.


Here's one (Right-wing) - there are more:

America was founded as a "Christian" nation.
(The majority of historians and political scientists who have honestly evaluated the original documents/letters from America's founding fathers will disagree with the above statement. America was founded on the ideas of the Enlightentment and mention is made of "God's natural law(s)" - but none of our official documents are "Christian" by definition or nature. The Founding Father's CLEARLY had the opportunity to establish this nation as a Christian nation in VERY OVERT language - but in their own wording, they those not to. This idea is VERY revisionist from "the right." Additionally, the U.S. was NOT founded with God in absence - this would be revisionist from "the Left.")

"The Right" tends to revise history from a Nationalistic perspective that "Everything the U.S. does/did was correct and with the noblest of intentions. "The Left" tends to revise history in a way that everything that the U.S. does/did was bad and/or for the worst intentions. The U.S. acts in its own best interests (like ALL nations) - sometimes that results in "good" - sometimes it does not.

[As Timbo said - it goes BOTH ways.]

I would argue that if we, as Americans were more honest about our history, then we would be a better nation. Currently the extreme partisan divide we have in the U.S. prevents us from even accepting our authentic history (From the Left or the Right.) [Watch where this discussion goes - if it is not closed quickly.]

The other problem is High school textbooks - And they are hit from BOTH sides of the political spectrum as well ) High School textbooks are NOT written to teach history - they are written to indoctrinate one into the culture/society. To make one "a good citizen." [Having served on public school history textbook adoption committees - I can attest to the political nature of simply adopting a textbook.]

Here are 2 books that I would recommend. They are both well researched and the scholarship is solid. (Look up some reviews of both books.)

"Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong" by James W. Loewen

"Myths America Lives By" Richard T. Hughes

[If you automattically write these of as being "liberal" because they are written by "liberal" college professors, then that may be an indicator of where your own personal bias may lie.

[Captain Eddie]

I largely agree with you, DA. However, this is one conservative who is fully aware that we were NOT founded as a Christian nation. While I'm sure there are those that say that, I personally do not remember running into them or reading that. The USA was, however, founded by a good number of Christian men, who certainly allowed and encouraged more "religion" in our institutions and everyday life than is allowed now.

[DADoser]

Originally Posted by Captain Eddie

I largely agree with you, DA. However, this is one conservative who is fully aware that we were NOT founded as a Christian nation. While I'm sure there are those that say that, I personally do not remember running into them or reading that. The USA was, however, founded by a good number of Christian men, who certainly allowed and encouraged more "religion" in our institutions and everyday life than is allowed now.

I would NOT indite all "conservatives" as being guilty of trying to revise History "from the Right." (Just as I would not indite ALL "liberals" of the same.)

I think that was the point of Timbo's (3:17) post regarding labels. The accusation and labeling of all "folks who have a liberal world-view" (The Liberals or The Left) of being guilty of revisionist History. That is an indication of ugly partisanship and name calling - unfortunately, where we are in today's political America. The extreme partisanship/name calling that America has sown during peacetime - is being reaped (and ripping us apart) during war-time.

I think one cause of this is the "spinning" (or revision) of history to make it fit one's political/policy justifications. [Witness President Bush's recent (Aug. 07) "revision" of History regarding Vietnam and his (mis) application of it to Iraq.]

There is nothing wrong with having a "conservative" or "liberal" world view. Using that view to omit inconvienent facts or revise History is wrong.

[TopHat]

I gotta tell you that I've not really heard that either, but I never was a fan of Rev. Falwell or Pat Robertson.

What I did learn from my public school education, provided by the good citizens of the US of A, was that some of our founding fathers, such as Ben Franklin and Thoman Paine, were confirmed diests and not theists. I can thank my high school American Lit. teacher for that bit of history. The lengthy written debate that took place between Franklin and Cotton Mather was an interesting topic and should do much to dispell the idea that the USA is a theistic nation.....

[Old Crow]

A pair of relatively recent and excellent books on the subject of the religious faith, or lack thereof, of the founders are these:

The Faiths of the Founding Fathers by David L. Holmes and American Gospel: God, the Founding Fathers, and the Making of a Nation by Jon Meacham.

I am by no means a scholar on the subject but I think the view of many constitutional scholars, and many Supreme Court decisions, is that the U.S. system of government is, in fact, founded on Judeo-Christian principles. Theism itself does not drive decisions of religion in constitutional matters; rather, it is the often thorny task of interpretation of rights and protections the founders built into the Constitution. Guaranteeing freedom of worship, freedom from government intrusion in religion or protecting one's right to be an atheist are not objectives that are necessarily inconsistent with the views of a man of faith, in my opinion.