[flyXwire]

Originally Posted by skysurfer808

This is an Indian documentary on the Su-30MKI, pretty interesting stuff in 3 parts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyJzdFCnWbA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1DmP...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMSFN...elated&search=

Skysurfer808

I can't wait for the showdown results between the Su-30MKI versus the F-22.

[FormerViperDriver]

Yes, Starman, I get Air Force Magazine every month as a life-time member of the Air Force Association. Now, that article is a bit datd (2003), so there's more recent info available now.

I got the chance recently to "fly" an F-35 simulator at Ramstein (Lockheed Martin brought it over as a "demo"). No motion, but three big TV screens in front for visuals, and all the displays worked (no helmet-mounted display though). It was very impressive. I was able to land vertically with minimal coaching on my first attempt (this was the STOVL version software), the flight control software is that good. It's just amazing. The avionics on the F-35 are far ahead of anything I've ever seen or read about. Coupled with the helmet-mounted display, it gives you capabilities that are just unheard of, even weird in some cases (like being able to see "through" the airframe and even your own body, for example look straight down in the cockpit and see the ground directly beneath, all in the IR region, so it's day or night).

The F-35 will be a fantastic weapons system, no doubt in my mind. I do have doubts, however, about how soon it will be in service. Seems to me the program is pretty optimistic. I think that will leave the door open for the Air Force to buy more F-22s in the meantime.

FVD

[FormerViperDriver]

Originally Posted by flyXwire

I can't wait for the showdown results between the Su-30MKI versus the F-22.

Well, it would be interesting if we limited them to guns/heaters-only in a dogfight, otherwise BVR the Sukhois have no chance.

But yeah, I'd sure like to see that. I think it would come down to pilot experience more than anything else in that fight. It would be a close match.

FVD

[flyXwire]

Originally Posted by FormerViperDriver

But yeah, I'd sure like to see that. I think it would come down to pilot experience more than anything else in that fight. It would be a close match. FVD

Yeah, these Indian fighter jocks are quite confident that their piece of hardware can kick major ass! They do remind me alot of the engineers that used to work under my management. I guess the proof is in the pudding once these two opposing combat aircraft finally meet each other. I can't hardly wait to find out....

[skysurfer808]

According to a post in the Air Combat Information Group Forum, which divided the total number of flying hours by pilots, Indian Air Force pilots log somewhere between 250-330 hours, which compares very favorably to the US goal of 240 plus hours per year http://www.s188567700.online.de/foru...opic.php?t=528

If this is the case and the Indians would likely be quite skilled in air combat, something borne out by the now infamous Cope Thunder exercise. The Indian Air Force is a well equipped force, consisting not only of the aformeentioned Sukhois, which will be produced in India, but also the Tejas fighter, and the indigenous Dhruv light helicopter. With a vast area of operations, from the Himilayas to the Indian Ocean, and from the desert frontier near Pakistan, to the jungles of Burma, India's Air Force has evolved into one of the premier Air Forces in the Eurasian land mass.

Here are some more youtube clips showcasing India's Air Force
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4l7w...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJoP0...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu5gz...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8f3X...elated&search=

This is an Indian made documentary that shows a lot about the unique operating environment the of the Indian Air Force, along with pilot interviews from the 1999 Kargil War against Pakistan, in which the Indians made history with the highest altitude precision bombing yet performed...using their Mirage 2000s. No other Air Force flies such a unique mix of aircraft, and though this can be a logistical nightmare, it also ensures redundancy if foreign spares support is interrupted. The Indians operate the Su-30MKI, Su-30MK, Mig 29, Mig 27, Mig 21, Mirage 2000, Jaguar, Sea Harrier, and will soon add the Mig 29K to its Naval Aviation component. The US recently offered the F/A-18F with AESA radar, and apparantly the F-16 is also on the table. From a cultural standpoint, the IAF has inherited the rank system and uniforms of the RAF, indeed the IAF is approximately the same age as the USAF...both really came into being in 1947....though the IAF counts its establishment under the British Empire in October 8 1932...it became the Royal Indian Air Force in 1945, and reverted to IAF in 1950. The Indian Air Force flew Wapitis, Lysanders, Hurricanes and Spitfires during WW-2, and partipated in counterinsurgency missions along the Northwest Frontier with Afghanistan from founding till into WW-2. Therefore, India's Air Force has a strong Western tradition base and this has remained despite an influx of Soviet weaponry from the 1960s on. India was the initial export customer for the Mig 21, and it was their specifications that led to the Mig being built with an internal gun. I found it interesting that the Indians conduct flight operations in English...though given the language diversity in India, this is a natural result. Also, when you choose the best of one billion people to be your pilots, you're bound to have some good ones.

A great site on the Indian Air Force is here. http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/
and the official site is here. http://indianairforce.nic.in/

Now when you consider the above, and the fact that India is the world's democracy, why on earth has the US chosen to align itself with Pakistan, which is harboring public enemy number 1 (anybody remember Osama) and allowing the Taliban sanctuaries to attack NATO peacekeepers in Afghanistan. Also, anybody remember who allowed the Taliban to take over Afghanistan in the first place. India is a natural ally of the US, and its participation in Red Flag ought to take place. This year's Red Flag has been nicknamed Colonial Flag in recognition of British and Australian participation. Next year's should include the Indians, and this will provide an invaluable training opportunity for both the USAF and IAF...as well as integrating India's Air Force further into the Western system.

Skysurfer808

[planenutsfrog]

Originally Posted by FormerViperDriver

It's nice to see people are starting to see I wasn't BS-ing about the F-22...

Anyway, regarding the idea of "stopping in mid-air" or in any case slowing down dramatically in a dogfight, it is both true that it can be extremely effective as a last ditch maneuver if you're about to have you brains gunned out, and that it is very dangerous because it leave you vulnerable to attack from another aircraft in the fight (like the wingman of the guy you just oiled by doing a Cobra, for example). So if you run out of other ideas, then yes, Cobras and other such maneuvers may get you out of immediate trouble, but then get you in another kind of trouble. Personally, I would only use such a maneuver in extremely dire circumstances. There are two main sayings in the world of fighter pilots: 1) "Lose sight, lose fight" and 2) "Speed is life." Now, if I knew for sure I'm up against only one opponent, then I wouldn't be as cautious and assuming I'm flying an aircraft with superior low-speed maneuverability, then it might make sense to slow down hard to get the other guy in front, just like Maverick...

And Planenutsfrog, maybe the Rafale (but without thrust vectoring, not really...) but certainly not the Mirage 2000, either the -5 or any other model. It's a decent dogfighter, but underpowered (by today's standards that is) and it loses way too much energy in turns due to its tailless delta wing (the Fly-by-Wire controls can only help so much there). Certainly would not stand a chance against a Rafale, Eurofighter, F-22, Su-30MK, etc... In fact, even an F-15/F-16/F-18 should be able to give it an extremely hard time. The strength of the Mirage 2000-5 lies more in its weapon system, but even then, it's not up to the standards of the latest generation of fighters, mostly due to lack of an AESA radar. Sorry... (and trust me, I like the Mirage 2000 series, so I'm saying this only because it's the truth).

As far as the Su-30 MK series, with thrust vectoring they are indeed awesome in the close-in arena. It may be able to lay claim to the title, tough to say. It's main dissadvantage is its huge size. As I've said before, when you get in the visual fight arena, being small is a definite advantage, as is having outstanding visibility though a nice bubble canopy (see fighter pilot saying #2 above). The F-22 is pretty large also, but still more compact than the Su-27/30 series. And F-16 is great in that respect (and small size was a big, big factor in aggressor F-5s or A-4s getting kills on F-15s and such in training). So I would caution all those who think that sheer maneuverability is the only factor in determining which is the "best dogfighter."

FVD

I knew you would react FVD !

So, why the 2000-5 then ?

Well, just because the confrontations between the Mirage 2000-5 and early standards of the Rafale, don't seem to have been that conclusive (in favor of the Rafale)...

You are right about the lack of thrust of the M53P2. Until the Rafale, it had almost been a trademark of French fighters, to be relatively underpowered.

Still, I do believe the 2000-5 to be more than a match for the F 16C/D, F/A 18C/D, Mig 29 and Gripen, in the air superiority role.

Even slightly outclassed, it would remain a tough nut to crack for the F 16E/F, F/A 18E/F, F 15C/D, SU 30 and perhaps Typhoon...

I tend to consider the F 22 as a new generation on his own.

[flyXwire]

Originally Posted by skysurfer808

According to a post in the Air Combat Information Group Forum, which divided the total number of flying hours by pilots, Indian Air Force pilots log somewhere between 250-330 hours, which compares very favorably to the US goal of 240 plus hours per year http://www.s188567700.online.de/foru...opic.php?t=528

If this is the case and the Indians would likely be quite skilled in air combat, something borne out by the now infamous Cope Thunder exercise. The Indian Air Force is a well equipped force, consisting not only of the aformeentioned Sukhois, which will be produced in India, but also the Tejas fighter, and the indigenous Dhruv light helicopter. With a vast area of operations, from the Himilayas to the Indian Ocean, and from the desert frontier near Pakistan, to the jungles of Burma, India's Air Force has evolved into one of the premier Air Forces in the Eurasian land mass.

Here are some more youtube clips showcasing India's Air Force
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4l7w...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJoP0...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu5gz...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8f3X...elated&search=

This is an Indian made documentary that shows a lot about the unique operating environment the of the Indian Air Force, along with pilot interviews from the 1999 Kargil War against Pakistan, in which the Indians made history with the highest altitude precision bombing yet performed...using their Mirage 2000s. No other Air Force flies such a unique mix of aircraft, and though this can be a logistical nightmare, it also ensures redundancy if foreign spares support is interrupted. The Indians operate the Su-30MKI, Su-30MK, Mig 29, Mig 27, Mig 21, Mirage 2000, Jaguar, Sea Harrier, and will soon add the Mig 29K to its Naval Aviation component. The US recently offered the F/A-18F with AESA radar, and apparantly the F-16 is also on the table. From a cultural standpoint, the IAF has inherited the rank system and uniforms of the RAF, indeed the IAF is approximately the same age as the USAF...both really came into being in 1947....though the IAF counts its establishment under the British Empire in October 8 1932...it became the Royal Indian Air Force in 1945, and reverted to IAF in 1950. The Indian Air Force flew Wapitis, Lysanders, Hurricanes and Spitfires during WW-2, and partipated in counterinsurgency missions along the Northwest Frontier with Afghanistan from founding till into WW-2. Therefore, India's Air Force has a strong Western tradition base and this has remained despite an influx of Soviet weaponry from the 1960s on. India was the initial export customer for the Mig 21, and it was their specifications that led to the Mig being built with an internal gun. I found it interesting that the Indians conduct flight operations in English...though given the language diversity in India, this is a natural result. Also, when you choose the best of one billion people to be your pilots, you're bound to have some good ones.

A great site on the Indian Air Force is here. http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/
and the official site is here. http://indianairforce.nic.in/

Now when you consider the above, and the fact that India is the world's democracy, why on earth has the US chosen to align itself with Pakistan, which is harboring public enemy number 1 (anybody remember Osama) and allowing the Taliban sanctuaries to attack NATO peacekeepers in Afghanistan. Also, anybody remember who allowed the Taliban to take over Afghanistan in the first place. India is a natural ally of the US, and its participation in Red Flag ought to take place. This year's Red Flag has been nicknamed Colonial Flag in recognition of British and Australian participation. Next year's should include the Indians, and this will provide an invaluable training opportunity for both the USAF and IAF...as well as integrating India's Air Force further into the Western system.

Skysurfer808

Excellent dissertations, Skysurfer808! Thank you.

[FormerViperDriver]

Originally Posted by skysurfer808

According to a post in the Air Combat Information Group Forum, which divided the total number of flying hours by pilots, Indian Air Force pilots log somewhere between 250-330 hours, which compares very favorably to the US goal of 240 plus hours per year http://www.s188567700.online.de/foru...opic.php?t=528

If this is the case and the Indians would likely be quite skilled in air combat, something borne out by the now infamous Cope Thunder exercise. The Indian Air Force is a well equipped force, consisting not only of the aformeentioned Sukhois, which will be produced in India, but also the Tejas fighter, and the indigenous Dhruv light helicopter. With a vast area of operations, from the Himilayas to the Indian Ocean, and from the desert frontier near Pakistan, to the jungles of Burma, India's Air Force has evolved into one of the premier Air Forces in the Eurasian land mass.

Here are some more youtube clips showcasing India's Air Force
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4l7w...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJoP0...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu5gz...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8f3X...elated&search=

This is an Indian made documentary that shows a lot about the unique operating environment the of the Indian Air Force, along with pilot interviews from the 1999 Kargil War against Pakistan, in which the Indians made history with the highest altitude precision bombing yet performed...using their Mirage 2000s. No other Air Force flies such a unique mix of aircraft, and though this can be a logistical nightmare, it also ensures redundancy if foreign spares support is interrupted. The Indians operate the Su-30MKI, Su-30MK, Mig 29, Mig 27, Mig 21, Mirage 2000, Jaguar, Sea Harrier, and will soon add the Mig 29K to its Naval Aviation component. The US recently offered the F/A-18F with AESA radar, and apparantly the F-16 is also on the table. From a cultural standpoint, the IAF has inherited the rank system and uniforms of the RAF, indeed the IAF is approximately the same age as the USAF...both really came into being in 1947....though the IAF counts its establishment under the British Empire in October 8 1932...it became the Royal Indian Air Force in 1945, and reverted to IAF in 1950. The Indian Air Force flew Wapitis, Lysanders, Hurricanes and Spitfires during WW-2, and partipated in counterinsurgency missions along the Northwest Frontier with Afghanistan from founding till into WW-2. Therefore, India's Air Force has a strong Western tradition base and this has remained despite an influx of Soviet weaponry from the 1960s on. India was the initial export customer for the Mig 21, and it was their specifications that led to the Mig being built with an internal gun. I found it interesting that the Indians conduct flight operations in English...though given the language diversity in India, this is a natural result. Also, when you choose the best of one billion people to be your pilots, you're bound to have some good ones.

A great site on the Indian Air Force is here. http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/
and the official site is here. http://indianairforce.nic.in/

Now when you consider the above, and the fact that India is the world's democracy, why on earth has the US chosen to align itself with Pakistan, which is harboring public enemy number 1 (anybody remember Osama) and allowing the Taliban sanctuaries to attack NATO peacekeepers in Afghanistan. Also, anybody remember who allowed the Taliban to take over Afghanistan in the first place. India is a natural ally of the US, and its participation in Red Flag ought to take place. This year's Red Flag has been nicknamed Colonial Flag in recognition of British and Australian participation. Next year's should include the Indians, and this will provide an invaluable training opportunity for both the USAF and IAF...as well as integrating India's Air Force further into the Western system.

Skysurfer808

Good stuff, however:

- It was COPE INDIA, not COPE THUNDER.

- The above exercises and the real possibility of India buying F-16s in the future show that although the US is "allied" with Pakistan (more by practical necessity than anything else), we are also making very positive progress in our relationship with India, as well we ought.

- Don't read too much in the results of COPE INDIA. The US fighters were severely restrained in what they were allowed to do, and in particular they fought a 1 to 3 or 4 odds against them on every engagement. That would be no problem at all for the F-22, but for an F-15 with the old radar (non-AESA), these are difficult conditions. Having said that, there is no question the Indian Air Force is highly capable both in equipment and pilot training/ability.

- BTW, the French Air Force has also started a series of exchange exercises with the Indian Air Force, code named "GARUDA" (so far there has been one deployment of French planes - Mirage 2000Cs and Ds - to India, and one of Indian Su-30MKIs to France. More will follow). What I hear from the French Air Force is that while the Indian crews are quite capable, they are not up to Western/NATO standard yet as far as training and tactics. Now, that may be only one side of the story, but that's my info.

FVD

[FormerViperDriver]

Originally Posted by planenutsfrog

I
So, why the 2000-5 then ?

Well, just because the confrontations between the Mirage 2000-5 and early standards of the Rafale, don't seem to have been that conclusive (in favor of the Rafale)...

...I tend to consider the F 22 as a new generation on his own.

Planenutsfrog, the problem with the Rafale against the Mirage 2000-5 in initial encounters had to do with radar range. My understanding from what I read and what I heard from French pilots in person is that early RBE-2s (the passive electronically scanned radar in the Rafale) had disappointing range, but apparently that has been improved through software changes in the last few years. How much I don't know. Rafales have had the same problems when facing F-18s in training fights over the Indian Ocean. However, when they get into a turning dogfight, it's pretty one-sided in favor of the Rafale (either against the M2000-5 of F-18, one-on-one). The Rafale has also done very well in turning fights (and overall) in their first Tactical Leadership Program participation recently, even NATO F-16 pilots had to admit they couldn't quite match the Rafale in a close fight. They would never admit that against the Mirage 2000.

As far as your last comment (about the F-22), you're right.

FVD

[jim]

Originally Posted by skysurfer808

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4l7w...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJoP0...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu5gz...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8f3X...elated&search=


This year's Red Flag has been nicknamed Colonial Flag in recognition of British and Australian participation. Next year's should include the Indians, and this will provide an invaluable training opportunity for both the USAF and IAF...as well as integrating India's Air Force further into the Western system.

Skysurfer808

British participation????????????????????????????????????? ??????

AH, you are gonna lend us some planes then?

Btw we have no money for fuel so please would you provide that also?

Heck we have no pilots?could you supply some of those as well please?

Come to think of it could you just do it all for us, that way the MOD would not have to spend any money but they could say that we participated.

There I go getting all cynical again.