[SKUNKY]

Well hopefully the U.S. Air Force will never declare war on the Navy...

[planenutsfrog]

I vote for the Mirage 2000-5 and Rafale !

[Merritec]

Originally Posted by skysurfer808

Okay, bringing back this thread due to some youtube clips I found. Though I agree with FVDs assertions on systems, on a one on one, the new Russians certainly can give the US a run for its money, all the more reason for America to remember our strengths and get back to basics (Aerospace and Sea Power) rather than trying to defeat enemies the way they fight best (on land).

This is an Indian documentary on the Su-30MKI, pretty interesting stuff in 3 parts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyJzdFCnWbA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1DmP...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMSFN...elated&search=

Here is the new Mig-29 variant with Thrust Vectoring Nozzles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RUCV6zRMsQ
This is in Russian, with a clip from the movie Stealth in the beginning, but it is still interesting.

And here's the Raptor doing a Cobra this year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ocr1BHQmgp4

So I leave it to you all to decide which is the best active service dogfighter in the world.

I realize that these machines are stripped down at airshow weights, still, i feel these clips give a good representation of the relative performance of these machines.

Skysurfer808

Sorry if I come of as uneducated, as Jet aircraft is not my thing, but I love this discussuion.

Doesn't all that manoevering, though good at getting the bead on someone, (Proved as a mute point a few comments ago with offbore sights) slow you down and make you more vulnerable to a missle in the tailpipe.
If I am way off, please be kind.

[skysurfer808]

I'm not a fighter pilot, just a student of air warfare, and I'd like to see what FVD has to say about this. Suddenly stopping in the air can make an airplane more vulnerable, but it can also be used to force an enemy to overshoot. Sudden slowdowns have been used numerous times in postwar air combat, by both Israeli and Iranian pilots. This manuver's most practical application is a sudden pitchup to a high angle of attack, then pitching back down and firing on the enemy's tail. According to an Iranian Tomcat driver, the early F-14 couldn't pull a cobra, but it could pitch to a 75 degree angle of attack, then turn around to acqire its enemy with guns and/or sidewinders. This was one manuver used by Maverick in that silly movie....which is actually a gay love story. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHklGtW3rwU

On a more serious note, as FVD asserted the turning fight is not as important as missile systems and stealthyness. Still, it helps to have a manuverable platform with carefree handling. That is why the YF-22 was chosen over they YF-23, for though the Black Widow was stealthier and supposedly had a faster supercruise, the Raptor was more manuverable and more of a dogfighter, plus it looked more like a fighter. Also, keep in mind that air to air missiles, though much more deadly than in the past, still can be outfoxed by radical manuvers, even though humans are only capable of pulling a limited number of Gs. If detected early enough, a highly manuverable aircraft still has a chance to outmanuver a missile. It took the US till the 1980s to develop and field effective air to air missiles, the Sparrow was an expensive lemon until the 1991 Gulf War. What makes the latest generation of superfighters so deadly is their turning capabilities coupled with their long range sensors. So manuverability is a backup plan, if the missiles fail, you can always outmanuver the enemy and shoot him down the old fashioned way.

Skysurfer808

[admin]

I'd have to say there are too many untested contenders to say with any confidence who I think is top dog these days. All of the new main line fighters have never really been tested, in real combat that is. I don't put much stock in exercises all too often they tend to be engineered for a certain result.

I would think that you'd have two categories: Most maneuverable, and most effective weapon system. I don't think that one aircraft would take both prizes.

[FormerViperDriver]

It's nice to see people are starting to see I wasn't BS-ing about the F-22...

Anyway, regarding the idea of "stopping in mid-air" or in any case slowing down dramatically in a dogfight, it is both true that it can be extremely effective as a last ditch maneuver if you're about to have you brains gunned out, and that it is very dangerous because it leave you vulnerable to attack from another aircraft in the fight (like the wingman of the guy you just oiled by doing a Cobra, for example). So if you run out of other ideas, then yes, Cobras and other such maneuvers may get you out of immediate trouble, but then get you in another kind of trouble. Personally, I would only use such a maneuver in extremely dire circumstances. There are two main sayings in the world of fighter pilots: 1) "Lose sight, lose fight" and 2) "Speed is life." Now, if I knew for sure I'm up against only one opponent, then I wouldn't be as cautious and assuming I'm flying an aircraft with superior low-speed maneuverability, then it might make sense to slow down hard to get the other guy in front, just like Maverick...

And Planenutsfrog, maybe the Rafale (but without thrust vectoring, not really...) but certainly not the Mirage 2000, either the -5 or any other model. It's a decent dogfighter, but underpowered (by today's standards that is) and it loses way too much energy in turns due to its tailless delta wing (the Fly-by-Wire controls can only help so much there). Certainly would not stand a chance against a Rafale, Eurofighter, F-22, Su-30MK, etc... In fact, even an F-15/F-16/F-18 should be able to give it an extremely hard time. The strength of the Mirage 2000-5 lies more in its weapon system, but even then, it's not up to the standards of the latest generation of fighters, mostly due to lack of an AESA radar. Sorry... (and trust me, I like the Mirage 2000 series, so I'm saying this only because it's the truth).

As far as the Su-30 MK series, with thrust vectoring they are indeed awesome in the close-in arena. It may be able to lay claim to the title, tough to say. It's main dissadvantage is its huge size. As I've said before, when you get in the visual fight arena, being small is a definite advantage, as is having outstanding visibility though a nice bubble canopy (see fighter pilot saying #2 above). The F-22 is pretty large also, but still more compact than the Su-27/30 series. And F-16 is great in that respect (and small size was a big, big factor in aggressor F-5s or A-4s getting kills on F-15s and such in training). So I would caution all those who think that sheer maneuverability is the only factor in determining which is the "best dogfighter."

FVD

[STARMAN 352ND]

FVD,
How will the showdown between the F-22 vs F-35 come about ?
JP

[FormerViperDriver]

Originally Posted by STARMAN 352ND

FVD,
How will the showdown between the F-22 vs F-35 come about ?
JP

Well, the F-22 will always be the better of the two in air-to-air, whether in BVR or close-in. BVR because it has a longer range radar (larger antena), a better passive electromagnetic emission detection system, and a lot more missiles, plus faster supercruise and a higher ceiling. It may also have a lower radar cross-section, but here I'm speculating. What I read in most open sources is that the RCS might be similar in the front, but F-22 would be stealthier towards the back. Not sure...

However, keep in mind the F-35 is designed to be primarily an air-to-ground platform (with outstanding self-defense capability), so that's where its strengths lie. Still, it will be an extremely dangerous air-to-air opponent against anything non-stealthy fighter aircraft (which right now is everybody except the F-22) in the BVR arena, due to its stealth and ultra-modern AESA radar. It will also be a very capable dogfighter, though without thrust vectoring, not quite a good as the F-22 or Su-30MKI. I think it's the right approach for 21st century air combat. The dogfight may not be 100% dead, but it's getting to be more and more unlikely. Certainly nice to have an ultra-maneuverable aircraft just in case, but I wouldn't spend most of my design money on that aspect (sorry Eurofighter, you got it wrong...).

FVD

[STARMAN 352ND]

Well that is good to know the F-22 has a edge on the F-35 because i was reading something the other day that the F-35 will be sold to other countries as well.
I'll try to find that article and post it.
JP

[STARMAN 352ND]

Here is the article i was reading about it.
I'm sure you have read it already too FVD.
JP
http://www.afa.org/magazine/april2003/0403F35.asp