[Captain Eddie]

Very interesting discussion. Thanks, Skysurfer, for bring up Dicta Boelke. The man knew his stuff!!

And I REALLY appreciate the lack of personal attacks!

[FormerViperDriver]

Jim,

Good comments, and it's still true that dogfights may occur in certain circumstances. That's why even the F-22, primarily designed to kill other planes at long stand-off distances, was still designed to be a pretty darn good Within-Visual-Range fighter, in fact one of the best. And we will continue to teach our pilots to "mix it," but with the understanding that that knowledge is for last-ditch circumstances only (although there may even be rare scenarios when it will be required as an only option). I don't think anyone in the US is looking at repeating the gross buffoonery that occured in Britain in the 60s ("missiles can do it all") and to a lesser extent in the US ("no guns on fighters, no need to teach dogfight maneuvers").

But one thing people forget all the time is that the entire nature of air warfare has changed in the past couple of decades. These days, it's not individual planes and pilots that you have to consider, it's the entire system to include AWACS, RC-135s, aerial tankers, ground radars, and particularly, the whole datalink architecture which allows you to share information about the air battle space instantaneously with multiple entities. The situation awareness of a pilot today is far, far beyond what I experienced when I first became an Air Force pilot in the early 80s. You don't win battles by superior information alone, but believe me, it's a huge force multiplier.

Our "system" approach to air warfare, combined with excellent training and great jets, is what makes us truly superior. The quality of the F-22 fits right in there. It gives us even more info on the enemy (superb radar and ESM), while denying same inemy info on us (stealth). I can't over-emphasize how important this is. I hate to burst the bubble of those with old romantic notions of air combat (silk scarves flowing in the airstream and all), but what can I say, it's reality.

FVD

[Captain Eddie]

Originally Posted by FormerViperDriver

Our "system" approach to air warfare, combined with excellent training and great jets, is what makes us truly superior. The quality of the F-22 fits right in there. It gives us even more info on the enemy (superb radar and ESM), while denying same inemy info on us (stealth). I can't over-emphasize how important this is. I hate to burst the bubble of those with old romantic notions of air combat (silk scarves flowing in the airstream and all), but what can I say, it's reality.

FVD

This probably is part of the reason why modern jets, though awesome, and beautiful in their own right, do not interest me too much. But I have very much enjoyed the modern jet education that has been provided,

[skysurfer808]

Okay, bringing back this thread due to some youtube clips I found. Though I agree with FVDs assertions on systems, on a one on one, the new Russians certainly can give the US a run for its money, all the more reason for America to remember our strengths and get back to basics (Aerospace and Sea Power) rather than trying to defeat enemies the way they fight best (on land).

This is an Indian documentary on the Su-30MKI, pretty interesting stuff in 3 parts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyJzdFCnWbA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1DmP...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMSFN...elated&search=

Here is the new Mig-29 variant with Thrust Vectoring Nozzles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RUCV6zRMsQ
This is in Russian, with a clip from the movie Stealth in the beginning, but it is still interesting.

And here's the Raptor doing a Cobra this year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ocr1BHQmgp4

So I leave it to you all to decide which is the best active service dogfighter in the world.

I realize that these machines are stripped down at airshow weights, still, i feel these clips give a good representation of the relative performance of these machines.

Skysurfer808

[Captain Eddie]

Welcome back again, Skysurfer!

[FormerViperDriver]

Originally Posted by skysurfer808

I realize that these machines are stripped down at airshow weights, still, i feel these clips give a good representation of the relative performance of these machines.

Skysurfer808

Slight correction: while the MiGs and Sukhois are usually stripped down for airshows (and are quite often just prototypes not in service anywhere), the F-22 is not. It is a fully operational, nothing-taken-out model from a front line squadron. Only thing is it doesn't carry the internal missiles (6 AIM-120s and 2 AIM-9s) during airshows.

Still valid point that the Russian planes are truly excellent in turning fights, even the basic (and fully operational) MiG-29 and Su-27.

FVD

[swoop]

I could'nt explain the ups and downs of Snakes & Ladders. So that lets me out.

[skysurfer808]

What impressed me was the fact that the Indian Air Force has begun basic fighter training for pilots in the Su-30MKI. It will be interesting to see how they perform in Red Flag 2008 if current controversy concerning gasoline sales to Iran don't derail that visit. It ought to be an interesting match if the Raptors also participate. IMHO, the Su-30MKI is the second best air to air platform in the world, better than everything but the F-22. The Su-27/30 series has now been exported to 10 nations, plus 5 former Soviet republics. What is especially concerning is the Su-27 series performance against the Super Hornet, perhaps now the USN will rethink the necessity of having a dedicated Air to Air platform.

Skysurfer808

[Waltz41]

I'm not going to jump in with my opinion here, but I will just add this:

I talked to a Hornet driver this weekend at an air show. Been flying F/A-18s for 16 years. Recently him and a few in his squadron, plus a few other squadrons, went down to Florida to do some air to air training against the F-22. In 45 combat flights, the Raptor won 44 of them. In his estimation, he said he felt it would take about a half dozen Hornets to get a kill on the Raptor. He went on to talk very briefly about the radar capabilities and thrust vectoring of the F-22, just saying that even when the F-22 pilots said, ok listen, at this time I'm going to be at this altitude on this heading, the Hornets still couldn't get them.

[STARMAN 352ND]

I agree with that....I have been told many stories about the F-18 vs F-22 and it really does show that the F-22 is a great fighter.
I want to see how the F-35 will do with the F-22....Now that be one to see.
I still bet the F-22 will have a edge over the F-35.
JP