[Fly Navy 75]

Did someone say Navy?!!!!! What's up fellas? Top Hat and FVD, I'm sorely disappointed. This is not like you to shy away from battle! Want my opinion? Too bad, I'm going to throw it out there anyway. Since the argument has been framed with the HMS/HOBS weapons combo, F-22 is going to be hurting on this one (only when it comes to the first-shot opportunity that HMS will give an inferior airframe). Once F-22 gets it's JHMCS upgrade, I think we all know the answer. Raptor is still probably most effective at getting "saddled in" on someone, but probably will not get the first shot without Helmet. The thrust-vectoring variants of the Su-30 MKI, combined with a helmet, probably has some impressive capability. However, I would not discount the capabilities of a JHMCS equipped F-18E or Big-Mouth Viper with AIM-9X. That also poses the question, how about an Israeli Block 60 F-16 with Python? This is a tough one. Throwing up any of these platforms in a 1v1 may only result in the two aircraft trading missiles. Gentlemen - your thoughts?

[STARMAN 352ND]

Let's think here for a minute you are out of missles and all you had left was your guns....
Who then would be the best Dogfighter....I'm sure it will come down to who is a better fighter pilot as well.
Again i'm going to get mauled by my bro for this remark as well i'm sure.
JP

[bsmith13]

Hmmm. Others smarter than I have avoided this topic. Oh well.

Helmet mounted site/Off-boresite missile launch capability are huge in a dogfight. Thrust vectoring is a dangerous factor as well. All that being said, I wouldn't discount pilot skill in a dogfight. I've seen high-time guys in Block 50 F-16s stomp all over pretty much everything at close range.

[Shawn 507]

The Red Dog House!! Snoopy wins, F22 be darned!

[FormerViperDriver]

Originally Posted by Fly Navy 75

Did someone say Navy?!!!!! What's up fellas? Top Hat and FVD, I'm sorely disappointed. This is not like you to shy away from battle! Want my opinion? Too bad, I'm going to throw it out there anyway. Since the argument has been framed with the HMS/HOBS weapons combo, F-22 is going to be hurting on this one (only when it comes to the first-shot opportunity that HMS will give an inferior airframe). Once F-22 gets it's JHMCS upgrade, I think we all know the answer. Raptor is still probably most effective at getting "saddled in" on someone, but probably will not get the first shot without Helmet. The thrust-vectoring variants of the Su-30 MKI, combined with a helmet, probably has some impressive capability. However, I would not discount the capabilities of a JHMCS equipped F-18E or Big-Mouth Viper with AIM-9X. That also poses the question, how about an Israeli Block 60 F-16 with Python? This is a tough one. Throwing up any of these platforms in a 1v1 may only result in the two aircraft trading missiles. Gentlemen - your thoughts?

Just a minor correction: the Israelis don't fly block-60s. Only the UAE does (F-16E). The F-16I is a variant (heavily modified, no doubt) of the Block-50.

FVD

[FormerViperDriver]

Originally Posted by jim

Galland himself said, have the height go straight down through the enemy guns blazing and keep going dont stop and mess with Mustangs.

Good advice for the mostly rookie pilots he had to lead at that stage of the war.

Jim, it's actually great advice even for the most experienced pilots. As romantic as the notion of the traditional "mano-a-mano" dogfight is, it is a well known and proven way to get killed in combat, regardless of experience (see Thomas McGuire). And don't forget Hartmann and Backhorn were shot down multiple times themselves (primarily for letting thenselves be wrapped up in prolongued turning engagments), and were lucky to make it out alive every time.

Modern fighter pilots are taught to avoid dogfighting like the plague. We still practice it for two reasons: as an "emergency procedure" just in case, and because it's fun (in peacetime training only), although even there, the advent ot HAOB/HMCS has made it a lot less fun. We are taught not to dogfight in combat unless there is absolutely no other option.

Getting into a furball in a multi-bogey environment is like gambling with your life, no matter how good you are. The smart pilot will try to get out of that situation ASAP and come back another day for the unobserved, easy kill.

FVD

[Shawn 507]

Originally Posted by FormerViperDriver

Modern fighter pilots are taught to avoid dogfighting like the plague. We still practice it for two reasons: as an "emergency procedure" just in case, and because it's fun (in peacetime training only), although even there, the advent ot HAOB/HMCS has made it a lot less fun. We are taught not to dogfight in combat unless there is absolutely no other option.

Getting into a furball in a multi-bogey environment is like gambling with your life, no matter how good you are. The smart pilot will try to get out of that situation ASAP and come back another day for the unobserved, easy kill.

FVD

Then why call yourselves 'Fighter" pilots? Not much "fighting" is going on with the unobserved easy kill. And no this isn't a dig at you or any other fighter jock. Just a simple question. Interceptor seems to be a better description.
- Shawn

[chiefs70]

Originally Posted by Shawn 507

Then why call yourselves 'Fighter" pilots? Not much "fighting" is going on with the unobserved easy kill. And no this isn't a dig at you or any other fighter jock. Just a simple question. Interceptor seems to be a better description.
- Shawn

Well, I would probably contribute that to either tradition or the inertia of accepted terms. After all, modern cavalry units aren't riding horses rather AFVs and choppers but the name remains.

Now then, I think I hear a siren going off so I am heading for a ditch -

[TopHat]

Originally Posted by skidmarksdiecast

I understand, but again, I didn't intend to start up a "my plane's better than your plane" type of debate/argument. I'm just interested in folks opinions.

No, I know you didn't. But I predict it will end up that way.

The problem is, it appears as if only one opinion can be expressed without being subjected to ad hominems. I fight every effing day I'm at work, it's what I'm paid to do, but I really try to avoid this when I'm on my own time and especially when I'm in this forum.

[STARMAN 352ND]

Originally Posted by FormerViperDriver

Modern fighter pilots are taught to avoid dogfighting like the plague.
We are taught not to dogfight in combat unless there is absolutely no other option.
The smart pilot will try to get out of that situation ASAP and come back another day for the unobserved, easy kill.
FVD

I like the way FVD answers those questions....
This is almost scary...Reminds me of my brother....
FVD is there ever a time that you will go back to flying
these fighters in the reserve?

JP