[FormerViperDriver]

Originally Posted by jim

Btw way I just had to add a comment. Germany could hardly have been called a democracy anytime before WW11.
They had enough trouble just trying to hold Germany together as a nation.

Jim, that was my point exactly.

As to the larger debate, DADoser, I'll be the first one to say that Iraq/Afghanistan today are very, very different than Germany/Japan post-WW II. So if that's your point, yes, I agree. But I'm one of those who thinks that these things take time, and it's too early to give up yet. We Americans are an instant-gratification society. People have no concept any more of things taking years, much less decades or generations to work themselves out. I believe a major reason for this is a large percentage of Americans know next to nothing about history (and geography for that matter). The members of this forum obviously are not a good sample for that, as most of them would naturally be inclined to learn more about the past due to their hobby. But knowledge of history in general is absolutely dismal in the US.

So someday, we may have to give up on Iraq becoming a democracy, but we're still not there. Four years is NOTHING in historical time. And even it that country does not make it to democracy, we'll still be better off than before, when Saddam was in power (and I fully understand that's subject to debate as well).

FVD

[Canucklehead]

I think that the last couple pages of this thread have adequately proven how the world views Canada and it's military. Easily forgotten sums it up. No matter how much is given or done by Canada or it's forces, the fact of the matter is we're small time next to our more populous and influential neighbour to the south. In all regards, politically, militarily, and culturally, the US is a super-power, and we are in it's shadow. I mean come on. It's easy to forget us, or not bother to learn about us in the first place. Compared to our American cousins, we are bland. Boring. Uninteresting. Whatever. I can tell you this though, most Canadians don't really care (or think about I imagine) how we are perceived globally. Being in the background is what we do, and what we have become used to, except at the odd ice hockey or curling tourney.

As stated in several earlier posts though, our forces do an admirable job with what they have. Budget cuts and poor acquistions have made it difficult since the late 1950s, but there's little that can be done to change our status as a second or third tier combat force. Adequate for the UN peacekeeping missions our nation became (almost) famous over the past several decades, but not much good for a continued armed conflict. When our troops were first dispatched to Afghanistan, there was a nation-wide uproar because the only fatigues we had were forest green, which doesn't really blend in to most of the terrain in that part of the world. That situation was rectified, but I still have the feeling that our guys over there could be better equipped, and maybe a bit safer than they are right now. At the moment I have the feeling that I get when I'm watching a game of hockey, football or whatever where things could be decided at any second. The whole thing is the other team is playing by their own rules, and it will take a miracle for our team to pull it off, because not only are the refs not calling anything, they have been blown up by an IED. I haven't prayed for anything since I was a kid, but I find myself saying a prayer every day for the safe return of our boys and girls and peaceful resolutions to the absolute crap storm that has blown up over there. Reason and diplomacy won't work with the enemy that is being faced at the moment. It's a sad state when those two most human and civilized of traits are missing from any equation. It makes it hard to have hope or faith that it can work out at all.

[Alph]

Canuk
I use to play on a team "The Flames" that went to Cranbrook/Trail/MedicineHat,,, several times a winter and we hosted teams from Canada as well. As for this thread I think there are other topics that I better understand than WARS and force feeding DEMOCRACY to unwilling nations. Give me a good pair of COOPERALLS and a KOHO Goalie stick and I'll bench for misconduct!!! GO! CCM GO! BAUER.Alph

When will I ever learn

[SKUNKY]

Originally Posted by jim

Germany could hardly have been called a democracy anytime before WW11.

Man,talk about being an ill-informed American....I thought we'd only had TWO world wars!....

[jim]

Originally Posted by SKUNKY

Man,talk about being an ill-informed American....I thought we'd only had TWO world wars!....

You will see a third when Lorraine sees all my diecast bills. If you feel the ground shake dont worry its not an earthquake, just Lorraine stamping her foot.
Did I tell you she used to kick start Jumbo jets at Manchester airport for a living?

[Lofty]

Wow , I go away for a coupla days and this thread has really moved on apace.....and it is VERY interesting reading.
I don't think the current conflicts in Iran and Afghanistan are seen by Islamist's as country V's country but West V's Islam.
Looking at most of the government's of Middle East Nations , Democracy is not high on the list of things to do.........
I notice also Algeria is struggling again with extremists , several people killed in a suicide attack on the president.........not long before that becomes an Islamic state.
Jihad is well on its way IMO.
Finally in spirit of the original thread , my condolences go out to the families of the six Canadian soldiers killed in Afghanistan.

[Canucklehead]

Originally Posted by Lofty

Finally in spirit of the original thread , my condolences go out to the families of the six Canadian soldiers killed in Afghanistan.

... And to the families of the two soldiers killed today. It's been a bad week.

[mapleflag]

Helluva week, looks like it may be the rough spring that was predicted. God I hope not.

[Old Crow]

Very interesting discussion. Always good to be reminded of the good will and support of our neighbors to the North.

In that spirit, I recommend a book about the courage and determination of Canadian soldiers during Overlord when they held the line at Juno Beach. Check it out:
http://www.amazon.com/Holding-Juno-C...6353754&sr=8-2

The author, Mark Zuehlke, has a number of fine books about the Canadians in WW2.

[STARMAN 352ND]

Originally Posted by Canucklehead

... And to the families of the two soldiers killed today. It's been a bad week.

I agree it's been a bad week...Sometimes it feels like it never going to end.
JP