[Captain Eddie]

I am currently reading Gunther Rall's autobiography "My Logbook." I am much enjoying it, by the way. On page 190, he states: ,,,that a nation at war puts aside all internal conflicts until the moment of victory or defeat..." It seems to me that he understands an important point that many in the west (and specifically in the USA) do not understand.

[jim]

Originally Posted by dilligafocau

As a fortunate Londoner now living in Oz I agree with Jim's comments. Canada, like Australia, New Zealand, South Africa & India answered the call to arms. Im thinking with a few minor changes the Journalist/Author of this piece may have named any of the great Commonwealth Nations & made it an issue.

Did Canada & the other participant nations fight for a just cause to suit some kind of national ego?? I think not, they fought for the greater good....& stuff me they won.

Rommel was quoted as saying the Aussies were the only soldiers he ever feared. Having read about them I quite agree, are you sure you are safe down under. Be polite to everyone, be very polite.

[FormerViperDriver]

Originally Posted by Lofty

Always interested/intrigued in mans need to kill each other.

Oh, yeah, I had almost forgotten about this book, which I have in my library (haven't read it in 20 years though): "Man, the State, and War" by Kenneth Waltz. It's considered to be a seminal book on the subject of war and its causes. It was required reading in one of my graduate classes. A very good book.

As for history in general, THE referrence I believe is "The Story of Civilization" by Ariel and Will Durant, in 11 volumes. But tell you what, for the purposes of this exchange, just look up "Most Lethal Battles in World History" on Wikipedia. It'll water your eyes. By the way, the current NATO/US Afghan campaign doesn't quite make it in there, for some reason...

FVD

[Lofty]

Originally Posted by FormerViperDriver

Look, Lofty, I'll just make three remarks:

First, my remark about reading history had to do with the "meat grinder" comment of yours. Perhaps you should read about battles like Waterloo, Stalingrad, Iwo-Jima, Gettysburg, heck, the Thermopylae since it's in the news with the film "300." That might put the few loses we've suffered in Afghanistan in perspective for you. Yes, every loss is tragic for the families and friends of the victims, but if we in the West are going to fold every time we lose a couple of soldiers, my goodness what have we become?

Second, there are plenty of ways to win this war without committing "genocide." Just because not all our strategies (and even tactics sometimes) don't work out as planned doesn't mean we should either give up or kill everyone. I think there's something in the middle there, somewhere.

Third, no I don't see you as the enemy. The problem is that the enemy sees YOU and people like you as our "Center of Gravity'" (in the Clausewitzian sense, the strategic "Schwerpunkt"). They know they'll never, ever defeat us on the battlefield, so they will work on YOU to convince you to give up, through wanton killing of innocents and soldiers which they know will be reported relentlessly by our own media (who have NO interest in any good news. Not necessarily because of liberal bias, it's just that bad news sells). These killings make no sense militarily, but they do make sense as psychological warfare against us. Obviously, the enemy's plan might be working, it seems (that's exactly what I'd do if I were them, BTW; not hard to take a page from ol' uncle Ho in Vietnam). So no, you're not the enemy, you're just his only means to possibly win.

FVD

I hear you.........but please don't point your finger at me , you won't catch me at any anti war demo's , hell i don't even vote, it just depresses me that we have, as a species got to destroy each other .......
Between Hammer and Anvil........
Sorry for thread drift by the way Mods........
Can recommend reading The forgotten soldier by Guy Sajer, very interesting reading.

[Cardinal]

Let's keep it orderly folks, play the ball and not the person (we're talking soccer here, not American Football ) i.e. try to debate the issues without becoming personal - otherwise this thread will be short-lived ...

[mapleflag]

This thread has been very educational and disturbing reading. It has become very easy to see how quickly and easily things can degenerate from
tact and diplomacy to the lower side of human sensibility. Can we please return to the original discussion?

[Alph]

Yeah I see whats going on too! Compare 9/11 to Pearl Harbor and see the differences in reaction to bombing US intrests. Rosevelt had the balls to smack Japan and finish the point. Bush likes to involve Colition forces as a who's the US's friend? I don't see where our invasion of Iraq is going to be a worth while cause at all .......Alph

[FormerViperDriver]

Originally Posted by Alph

Yeah I see whats going on too! Compare 9/11 to Pearl Harbor and see the differences in reaction to bombing US intrests. Rosevelt had the balls to smack Japan and finish the point. Bush likes to involve Colition forces as a who's the US's friend? I don't see where our invasion of Iraq is going to be a worth while cause at all .......Alph

Huh, Alph, I hate to burst your bubble, but... there are no Canadians troops in Iraq...

FVD

[Alph]

Glad you didn't say the Region Viper, Doesn't really matter at this point! NO one should be over there! Though it's easy for us to sit here and make comments about a war that doesn't really confront You or I personally but No one has killed me or you yet, so how can we be sure? Alph

Just for kicks I'd expect this comment from a country that harbors Terrorism in their past and still does today! Please pardon my frankness Viper Alph

[SKUNKY]

Originally Posted by Alph

Just for kicks I'd expect this comment from a country that harbors Terrorism in their past and still does today! Please pardon my frankness Viper Alph

Alph, FVD is a former USAF fighter pilot...He's only temporarily in Germany because of his job.