[FormerViperDriver]

Originally Posted by jim

1.5 million in just one camp! How. How could humans do this to others. This touchs on another thread about racism. This is where extreme racism leads us. Sadly the human race has learnt nothing from this. just take a look around the world since then, it still goes on. You leave me in sombre mood Mo.

I don't know Jim. Maybe we (in the West) have learnt that it's better to lose a few people now than millions later (even if we'd prefer to lose no one)? Although it's pretty obvious to me not everyone has learnt that lesson from history... There are plenty of Neville Chamberlain wan-a-be's around.

FVD

[jim]

Originally Posted by FormerViperDriver

I don't know Jim. Maybe we (in the West) have learnt that it's better to lose a few people now than millions later (even if we'd prefer to lose no one)? Although it's pretty obvious to me not everyone has learnt that lesson from history... There are plenty of Neville Chamberlain wan-a-be's around.

FVD

Like I said FVD, they never learn. The best lesson we can all learn is to read history. the human race repeats its mistakes endlessly.

[skysurfer808]

Originally Posted by jim

Like I said FVD, they never learn. The best lesson we can all learn is to read history. the human race repeats its mistakes endlessly.

What is sad is that humans do not read their own history, instead generations seem to march in lockstep making the same mistakes they did in the past. This is why, all utopianism aside, human nature will never change. There are civilized humans, and they are savages. This isn't a racial or color line. I would say it can be cultural. Some cultures value human life, some do not. It is up to those who value it to defend against those who do not. Remember, Germany was a fountainhead of culture for Europe. Yet it spawned Naziism. Chinese civilization existed for millennea, gave us Taoism and Confucianism, yet Mao was responsible for 100 million deaths. Civilization and savegry can exist and even coexist, but savages only respect strength. Hence, military forces will always be necessary, despite what hippies and coca cola commercials may have us believe.

The Greeks recognized the duality of human nature when they made their Gods. Interestingly enough, they made 2 Deities for War. The better known of the two is Ares....Mars to the Romans. He's the bloodthirsty savage who loves to kill and inflict harm. He's the lover of Aphrodite (Venus). The Uber Alpha Male if you may. Yet Ares was also a bully who couldn't stand up when stood up against. This brings us to the other ancient Greek War Deity...Athena. Athena represents everything Ares is not, culture, intelligence, cunning. Yet she also was a warrior. In the Iliad, Athena ends up giving Ares quite a thrashing. The Greeks themselves didn't have much respect for Ares (except in Sparta) but Athena was regarded as a strong deity, the Goddess of Civilization and Wisdom.

I bring up these ancient myths because they describe two sides of the Human Condition, and War. One side fights because it is in its nature to do so, the other fights only when it must. If there is anything that history can tell us it is that this struggle will always define us as Humans.

Skysurfer808

[FormerViperDriver]

Really good post SkySurfer. Still, I'm not as pessimistic as you; I hope in a few generations we can all "learn to get along." But I know one thing: if it happens, it will take a concerted, constant effort to curb the natural aggressive tendencies of the human race. Biological evolution operates very slowly compared to cultural evolution. How the interaction between the two will play out is the determining factor for our future.

In any event it won't happen in our lifetime, so I'm certainly one who thinks we should have a very strong defense. Those who think spending less than 4% of our GDP on defense (as we do today right in the middle of a war) is "too much" have no sense of history.

FVD

[Captain Eddie]

Originally Posted by FormerViperDriver

I don't know Jim. Maybe we (in the West) have learnt that it's better to lose a few people now than millions later (even if we'd prefer to lose no one)? Although it's pretty obvious to me not everyone has learnt that lesson from history... There are plenty of Neville Chamberlain wan-a-be's around.

FVD

I very much agree with your posts, FVD, but, in Neville Chamberlain's defence, I would point out that he finally realized he was duped by Hitler, and than declared war on Germany! Unfortunately, this has not happened with the appeasers of today.

[MoMo]

I understand the feelings and concerns of all of you who advocate a strong defence policy. Prevention is better than cure.

I am one of those people who has a failing to appreciate that others may not be able to read my mind when I am mulling things over. My wife often has to point this out to me; that I have to articulate my thoughts in order to share them. That I have to bat the ball back when she speaks.

It was for this reason that I wanted to write down my impressions of our visit to Auschwitz. The process of writing helps to form a more focused account of what I saw and felt.

Words, of course, fail. Writing is a poor substitute for seeing and feeling.

Anger at what I saw is directed towards the people who who perpetrated these acts and also towards those who seek to manipulate the events of the past for their own ends. These so-called Holocaust disbelievers want to ferment indignation and to stir up racial hatred. It is so easy to over-react to them.

As time moves on we can ask ourselves what lessons the world may draw from these events in history. Next year Auschwitz marks its 60th year as a Polish National Memorial. For a couple of years after the liberation Auschwitz served as a hospital and displacement camp for survivors. The end of 2007 marks 60 years of Auschwitz as a place of memorial and a National Monument. At the end of 2007 many survivors and families of victims will return to Auschwitz to hold memorial services to the dead. At that time Auschwitz will become a centre of media attention. It is a time when many questions will be asked about the past and its meaning.

MoMo

[timbo]

Originally Posted by Captain Eddie

I very much agree with your posts, FVD, but, in Neville Chamberlain's defence, I would point out that he finally realized he was duped by Hitler, and than declared war on Germany! Unfortunately, this has not happened with the appeasers of today.

Remember also that most of Europe had lost a generation of their young men 20 years before Munich, including several members of my family on the first day of the Somme. The pain of that was great. Growing up I remember visiting my Great Aunt in Brighton. There was a home there for the veterans blinded by the gas attacks of the first war. Very sad to think what they had been though, and was my first realization that war wasn't all blood and glory.

No one wanted confrontation and war. Hitler was taking advantage of this situation by proclaiming it as undoing the unjust peace of Versailles and uniting the Germanic people. The UK was not ready for war, but pretty soon after Munich the ball dropped and Chamberlain realized that it was inevitable, thus the mutual defense pact with Poland that lead the the shooting match kick-off. This was Hitlers first miss-step as I think he thought that the UK wouldn't do it. Munich bought some time for Great Britain to prepare. I don't think that anyone of the great powers gets off scott free. France was paranoid and the US was just non existent.

I do not think that anyone would envisage in their worst nightmares what would happen with the development of the Nazi's final solution.

[timbo]

Momo - Thanks for writing your visit up. It's a place I would like to take my kids, so that they can see the reality of evil. Each generation that goes past more effort needs to be made in telling the story.

[FormerViperDriver]

Originally Posted by timbo

I do not think that anyone would envisage in their worst nightmares what would happen with the development of the Nazi's final solution.

Yep, and a lot of people today apparently cannot envisage what can (nay, WILL) happen if radical Islam is not stopped now. Too bad for us. 9/11 was just a preview...

FVD

[Canucklehead]

I bet you're real fun at parties FVD...