[Cavtanker]

Originally Posted by jim

Mo, how long before the war will be fought here on our own streets, its coming Mo.

Jim, it may already be here...but no one has noticed it yet.

[MoMo]

The M2 .50 cal MG has a MAX RANGE of 6,800m, EFFECTIVE RANGES for area targets 1,830m / point target 1,500m. So he was well outside the maximum range of even the best Afghani shooting (AK-47 max effective range 400m) at him. Hence no counterfire. Ya gotta love the M2.

Does the Taliban save its AT rocket Launchers purely for armour? Don't they use them on strong points too ? ( I don't know that range ) Anyway, the point that I was making, Shawn, was that I believe that the whole thing was a media set-up. I just believe it, that's all. I've had to endure 50 years of fawning toadyism generated by the media accorded to that unelected bunch of parasites. I never had the peasant mentality which would have enabled me to put up with their Royal Business shennanigans.

What are you defending them for anyway? It was your country which kicked them out! Remember: " no taxation without representation ! " Their royal forebears would have hung the lot of you ( pour encouragez les autres ! ) Harry is descended from a bunch of gangsters which would have made the Mafia and Al Capone look like a bunch of cissies! Look what a good job they did stealing half the world and disemminating slavery and race prejudice wherever they could steal land from the hapless natives!

You only have to put up with lame ducks for several years....we've got 'em for life!

While Harry was out there ( for 10 weeks....what a stint ! ) he was trailed round by a fully-embedded BBC film team which recorded every heroic moment for posterity. This is not a young man who seeks anonimity, but the active Royal publicity machine in operation. It was the Harry Show, in full flight.

10 weeks is still longer than some folks have ever put in!

You've missed the point here too. Harry is claiming that he just wants to be ' one of the boys '. If you took him away from the privellaged and cosseted lifestyle which he leads, he be greetin' ( crying ) for his grannie after two weeks. Also, he'll never be ' one of the boys ' and he knows that.

How many times have you had a national news service following you around for 10 weeks ? Watch the footage of harry playing up to the cameras...just like mum !

I do care about every one of our lads out there, including Harry. However, I do question the validity of our involvement in a struggle which seems largely pointless to me.

I bet they said the same thing when the BEF left for France.

Not fair Shawn !

And let's not forget that the Government and the Army were all pitching in to get some support from the folks back home through the exploitation of all this media three-ringed circus.

Does this generation not deserve the full support that their fore bearers received? Or is more popular to blame them for what they do. The 60s really weren't that great were they? You don't like the war do something about it, you voted those folks in that sent them off to fight. Start there.

I may not have been clear enough here. I was making the point that in this country about 50 % + are questioning our involvement in Iraq and Aghanistan. What is the goal ? Even the Gov. does not seem to be sure. Vague pretentions towards the establishment of " Democracy " seem to fall on deaf ears, this weather. We seem to have expended lives and effort in replacing one bunch of crooks and political loonies with another bunch of crooks, less loony, but more acceptable.

We'll never agree on this one. And I don't want to get into a political fire-fight again....you remember the last time?

LET SLEEPING DOGS LIE !

[MoMo]

jim

Remember, Jim, that's what they said about Vietnam. How many Vietnamese Commies are attacking us right now ?

We can't fight everybody with whom we have a fundamental dichotomy of opinion. The world is too big. You gotta ask who chooses these conflicts, and why.

If it's all to do with resources, and who accesses them, then let's be honest and just say that we're the west, we're the best, and we want it all. After that, we can ditch all pretence and kick the world around like we used to.

But, getting back to reality, we can't do that anymore. So I believe a better option is for us to DEMONSTRATE a better option. However, I can't really see that we do. That's the sad thing. I don't see anything in our present society which I would say is worth the effort.

Sure, we must fight to preserve our liberties...that goes without saying. However, to the rest of the world, all we seem to represent is greedy over-consumption and 50 years of moral detachment.

We do seem to be in a cleft stick, don't we ?

( any Taliban or Terrorist who walks down my road threatening me or my neighbours will get a Glasgow kiss and his jacksie kicked all the way back to wherever he came from. Let him enjoy his freedom to chop off hands and stone people where they will accept him ! )

[MoMo]

Re: Nice Things to Talk About

---

Jim, it may already be here...but no one has noticed it yet.

There are plenty of loonies here, that's true. But that's democracy for you. You have the right to be a political loony, as long as you don't harm anyone. If you do, we have the means to take care of that.

Successive governments in the U.K. have sponsored mass immigration and Political Asylum in order to appease :

• the economy
• Libertarian ideals
• Capitalist greed
• their obligations to agreements with former colonies
• immigrants who have been here for a long time and know how to use their vote

etc, etc.

That's the way it goes. You just have to live with it. If it means putting up with a few radicals, we'll just have to live with it. If the radicals get out of hand, we don't have to live with it....there are laws!

What does not wash well is the notion that if you fight illiterate peasants in the hills and mountains of Asia Minor, somehow you are safeguarding the streets of Birmingham from beheadings, stonings and the chopping off of limbs. This sort of stuff belongs in British Tabloids.

No. We did not lay the foundations of this fundamentalist nonsense; we did not subscribe to the exigencies of the British Establishment's requirements for factory fodder. We did cheer, however, when we learned that immigrant workers were helping to keep the National Health Service afloat, and that immigrant workers were underpinning many of our public services.

Accept the reality of Britain today.

It ain't the Britain which I recognise. It ain't the Britain which I want. It ain't the Britain I was promised when I was a boy. But, it is the Britain which I've got. So I'll live with it.

However, having had my say, I believe that people who come here have to learn that they can't be allowed to import stuff which upsets whatever is left of the British way of life.

[Cavtanker]

Mo, it does not matter if fighting them over there actually works. What is important is that the people believe that it actually works!

[MoMo]

Mo, it does not matter if fighting them over there actually works. What is important is that the people believe that it actually works!

I take your point Cav and I appreciate that, within the miasma of spin, you are absolutely correct. But I am worried that OUR boys are being killed and hurt in order to generate a political placebo. Governments will not talk to the radical forces in Asia Minor, but I think that they should be talking to them.

The west is still burdened by the Munich Effect. Talks are seen as appeasement. Our whole psyche is governed by the trigger response; the macho image which dictates action, rather than words.

Just who is winning the propaganda war ? Us or them ?

[Cavtanker]

Mo, I think it's probably the case of ourselves being told that we are winning, and themselves being told that they are winning. I believe that 'success', 'goals', and 'winning' all have different definitions. Unfortunately, we cannot measure 'success' by territory gained as in previous wars. Now we have to measure 'success' in hearts and minds, which is much more difficult.

[MoMo]

Mo, I think it's probably the case of ourselves being told that we are winning, and themselves being told that they are winning. I believe that 'success', 'goals', and 'winning' all have different definitions. Unfortunately, we cannot measure 'success' by territory gained as in previous wars. Now we have to measure 'success' in hearts and minds, which is much more difficult
Cavtanker

Well, Cav, go ahead. I hear what you're saying, and agree with your analysis, but when it comes to calibrating the heart and mind, then measuring them...................

I think that in those regions in Asia Minor, people have learned to tell western soldiers what they want to hear.

[Shawn 507]

Mo -
1st.
I defend Harry because he was there and is a serving member of the Armed Forces. That is something I respect, and I will defend. I take issue those who have never stepped up to the plate, slagging those who do. And while I don't get along with all my brothers and sisters to the left and right or those amongst the Allied Camp. I will stand by them when attacked, and yes even if its FVD.
2nd.
I also am tired of the "I support the troops, but I'm against the war" crap. You don't cheer for a team and then hope they lose the world cup. I don't want your support if your not going to stand behind me and see this through to a win no matter how long it takes.
This is whay I took issue with your post. I don't give a flip about the Royal Family, never have. I do admire the boy for trying. This is all I'll say on this issue.

[Cavtanker]

Originally Posted by MoMo

Well, Cav, go ahead. I hear what you're saying, and agree with your analysis, but when it comes to calibrating the heart and mind, then measuring them...................

I think that in those regions in Asia Minor, people have learned to tell western soldiers what they want to hear.

Mo, we can spend millions, and we have spent millions, on infrastructure projects that help any nation. But if we don't change hearts and minds through those actions, and allow that change to take place and give it credibility, we won't win any hearts and minds.

Mo, if we engage in talks, what would each side say?

I also believe that the politicians have learned to tell the people what they want to hear. And the western media and entertainment industry doesn't help anything either.

Once again, these are just my very humble opinions. They are simply based upon my experiential knowledge and my critical analysis of the world that surrounds me.