[Epapazian]

As far as I can determine there is no definitive source for statistics about fighter vs fighter combat in WWII. The Swedish authors, Sundin and Bergstrom published a work in 1997 ( "Luftwaffe Fighter Aircraft In Profile", Schiffer Publishing. LTD. ) which includes some research and speculation of the performance of the Luftwaffe's day fighters against Western and Eastern opponents. Bearing in mind that these are total combat losses for all kinds of planes, the authors estimate that Germany's day fighters shot down 7000 aircraft of the Western Allies between 1941 and 1943, while losing a mere 2800. In 1944-45, however, the West lost only 5500 while the German casualties were much larger--9500. As for the East, Sundin and Bergstrom contend that the Germans never fully lost their edge--at least where the statistics are concerned. In 1943, Luftwaffe day fighters disposed of 9000 Soviet aircraft while losing only 800. Even in 1945, the Luftwaffe scored 2000 Soviet 'Kills" against losses of 1000. In my line of work I often design research studies as well as interpret them, so I am well aware that data can be manipulated to prove or disprove almost anything. I am not saying that the estimates, listed above, are definitive proof of the Luftwaffe day fighter pilots' superiority, nor conclusive evidence that the Soviet pilots, as a whole, were inferior. However they are worth noting.

[stalag8611]

Originally Posted by Aircrafty

The Russians, god bless em

Yes, and they did it single handedly, by golly.

[STARMAN 352ND]

I think we all know who the best fighter pilots were.....
JP

[Berkut76]

Originally Posted by Epapazian

As for the East, Sundin and Bergstrom contend that the Germans never fully lost their edge--at least where the statistics are concerned. In 1943, Luftwaffe day fighters disposed of 9000 Soviet aircraft while losing only 800. Even in 1945, the Luftwaffe scored 2000 Soviet 'Kills" against losses of 1000. In my line of work I often design research studies as well as interpret them, so I am well aware that data can be manipulated to prove or disprove almost anything. I am not saying that the estimates, listed above, are definitive proof of the Luftwaffe day fighter pilots' superiority, nor conclusive evidence that the Soviet pilots, as a whole, were inferior. However they are worth noting.

Is this straight from Goebbel's office? For 1997, post-Communist Era they should have done better. I've published statistics on that matter in some other thread on this board, but at best Luftwaffe losses on the Eastern Front were 70% of the Soviet ones. With an introduction of P-39 in numbers, the Germans could no longer claim air superiority in the East. 1943 was the year that broke the German's back on the East with large numbers of not just veterans, but well trained rookies falling to the determined Soviets.

We should really take a step back, the Axis lost and not only because numerical inferiority. For obvious reasons, Luftwaffe had more aces, but they couldn't make up for lower average quality of Luftwaffe pilot vs. Allies one from 1943 onward.

Regards,

Sergey

[Aircrafty]

Originally Posted by stalag8611

Yes, and they did it single handedly, by golly.

No, but they could have. Which is more than could be said for the US

[Shawn 507]

Isn't the end state the bottom line? Comparing time periods only makes one feel good about the loser. And gushing about individuals when its a team effort that wins wars is pointless too. One pilot cannot change the final decision, despite his great mount.
Yes some Axis pilots did well, some beyod that. But they were part of a much larger organization, that thankfully lost. So I'll take the Allied pilot with no kills, that got into a plane for the right reasons over the guy with "X" number of kills for the wrong reasons.
Now I guess in this modern age, the Allies will be torn apart for winning. Despite what the Axis powers had in store for the world.

[Epapazian]

Originally Posted by Berkut76

Is this straight from Goebbel's office? For 1997, post-Communist Era they should have done better. I've published statistics on that matter in some other thread on this board, but at best Luftwaffe losses on the Eastern Front were 70% of the Soviet ones. With an introduction of P-39 in numbers, the Germans could no longer claim air superiority in the East. 1943 was the year that broke the German's back on the East with large numbers of not just veterans, but well trained rookies falling to the determined Soviets.

We should really take a step back, the Axis lost and not only because numerical inferiority. For obvious reasons, Luftwaffe had more aces, but they couldn't make up for lower average quality of Luftwaffe pilot vs. Allies one from 1943 onward.

Regards,

Sergey

While I don't have whatever research was used in the book I cited, it should be noted that the authors are talking only about day fighter kills and losses. From 1944 on the Germans denuded their already modest sized force of BF-109s and FW-190s on the Eastern front for the defense of the fatherland and to cope with the Allied invasion of Normandy. Typically, they had only 300-400 day fighters to cover the whole Eastern front. The Russians have admitted air combat losses that are much like those quoted in this analysis. If those numbers are accurate and they lost anywhere between 6000 and 8000 planes per year ,your contention that German losses were about 70% of the Russian would mean that the Luftwaffe lost every plane it had on the Eastern front many times over. I don't wish to make a big issue of this since most of the kill claims made by all sides are questionable and laden with propaganda. I just thought it wouldn't hurt to see what the numbers guys have to contribute.

[jim]

Originally Posted by STARMAN 352ND

I think we all know who the best fighter pilots were.....
JP

And we know who they are JP. Can I add some RAF chaps to your compliment.

[Aircrafty]

Originally Posted by Shawn 507

Isn't the end state the bottom line? Comparing time periods only makes one feel good about the loser. And gushing about individuals when its a team effort that wins wars is pointless too. One pilot cannot change the final decision, despite his great mount.
Yes some Axis pilots did well, some beyod that. But they were part of a much larger organization, that thankfully lost. So I'll take the Allied pilot with no kills, that got into a plane for the right reasons over the guy with "X" number of kills for the wrong reasons.
Now I guess in this modern age, the Allies will be torn apart for winning. Despite what the Axis powers had in store for the world.

I'm happy the Allies won.

However, I try to look at the Axis weapons, tactics etc from an unbiased view, and the same goes for Allied gear. For example I'm not a fan of the M4/Sherman because it should have been supplemented with a heavier tank and in effect its continued use as a main battle tank rather than for infantry support cost hundreds of allied lives, most of them being American.

Propaganda is well and good in wartime but over confidence can turn around and bite you on the bum on the battelfield if you underate your enemy and his weapons.

[stalag8611]

Originally Posted by Aircrafty

I'm happy the Allies won.

Boy, am I happy that you're happy that the Allies won. Now I can rest easy tonight.

However, I try to look at the Axis weapons, tactics etc from an unbiased view, and the same goes for Allied gear. For example I'm not a fan of the M4/Sherman because it should have been supplemented with a heavier tank and in effect its continued use as a main battle tank rather than for infantry support cost hundreds of allied lives, most of them being American.

Propaganda is well and good in wartime but over confidence can turn around and bite you on the bum on the battelfield if you underate your enemy and his weapons.