[Cardinal]

This debate clearly makes for interesting reading although I must confess I’ve resisted being drawn into it until now. The fact that there is such a debate being conducted in a lively and spirited manner is a testament to the divergent viewpoints represented on this forum and as Admin mentioned, we’re nevertheless all united by the common bond of die-cast .

For someone who has experience as both a practitioner and an academic I would like to assure those of you who appear to have become disenchanted with higher education that stereotypes and generalisations regarding academia are about as limited in their usefulness in this field as in any other, as they do not reflect reality and are often the product of personal perceptions. For centuries the academic world has been at the forefront of the pursuit of knowledge and as much as some would like to deny, it has more often than not had a symbiotic relationship with those whom it serves i.e. society at large. Of course there are ‘Ivory Towers’ that exist in their own little enclaves and who may appear somewhat disconnected with reality, but this is representative of only a small minority within the academic world.

One of the key tenets of academia is the fostering of critical debate and encouraging the analysis of issues from divergent viewpoints. The ability to think critically is what prepares individuals to face the rigours of life and academics that do not foster this skill among their students are clearly doing them a disservice. I, for one, tell my students early on not to take things at face value (including my opinions and the views of fellow lecturers) and that I expect them to be critical in debates and to feel free to differ with my views if they can do so using sound reasoning and logic, supported with appropriate evidence.

Educators are there to facilitate the discovery of knowledge and not to force partisan/biased viewpoints on others. This remains fundamental to the ethos of the academic world and is in my opinion still very much in evidence across reputable tertiary institutions around the globe. No one can ever be truly objective as we are all the sum of our experiences, but we can nevertheless try and foster a spirit of tolerance where we can feel free to hold and discuss our views in a manner that is both respectful and dignified even when we have to agree to disagree.

[Aircrafty]

Well argued. However, one mans perception is anothers reality, or are they the same

[MoMo]

Dear Cardinal,

I have to agree with you about the value of reasoned debate. However, you also have to accept that all academic institutions are just as subject to the same degree of conformist, reactionary prejudice as the rest of the world.

My own experience at University left me a disillusioned man. I encountered such ups and downs from the experience that I did not wish to take the opportunity to remain at University after I took my degree and so get on the academic treadmill.

Enlightened debate is part of the process, but smash the shell of conformity at the same time.

MoMo

[jim]

Sadly in my experience if you want to pass and get your degree, like it or not you must conform to the lecturers opinion. Failure to do so results in a fail. Discuss all you like but in the end conform or !!!!! My biggest problem at college was that if I thought the guy was talking c..p and bu.....t I would say so and argue my point,with most lecturers this went down like a lead balloon. I once wrote on an exam paper ,Paper written as required by Lecturer although I do not subscribe to one jot of it. Funny thing was I passed with flying colours!!!! I hope it is different today?

Originally Posted by MoMo

Dear Cardinal,

I have to agree with you about the value of reasoned debate. However, you also have to accept that all academic institutions are just as subject to the same degree of conformist, reactionary prejudice as the rest of the world.

My own experience at University left me a disillusioned man. I encountered such ups and downs from the experience that I did not wish to take the opportunity to remain at University after I took my degree and so get on the academic treadmill.

Enlightened debate is part of the process, but smash the shell of conformity at the same time.

MoMo

[Aircrafty]

Things haven't changed one bit Jim. Except there are more man hating Lesbians in Uni these days

[MoMo]

Sadly, Jim speaks the truth.

I went to University in the mistaken belief that they sought originality.

In reality, like most institutional entities, they require conformity to reaffirm their own belief systems and to support and nurture the ego of the discipline.

Just be happy to be a maverick who does not tow the line. Towing the line leads to slow brain-death and voting for the likes of Bush and Blair!

MoMo

[stalag8611]

Originally Posted by MoMo

Sadly, Jim speaks the truth.

I went to University in the mistaken belief that they sought originality.

In reality, like most institutional entities, they require conformity to reaffirm their own belief systems and to support and nurture the ego of the discipline.

Just be happy to be a maverick who does not tow the line. Towing the line leads to slow brain-death and voting for the likes of Bush and Blair!

MoMo

Hey, MoMo, I seriously doubt that any member of the teaching profession in the USA, secondary or university level, voted for Bush. Blair, most probably, but not "W'.

[MoMo]

Glad to hear it Stalag 8611,

This reaffirms by faith in American know-how.

Happy Christmas to you,

MoMo

[Mark 1]

Originally Posted by stalag8611

Zowie, wowie PC strikes again. Apparently you must a product to Australia's priviledged elite class. Diversity reigns and chaos is the name of the game, and watching twelve young girls burn to death because they aren't properly dressed is OK in your world, Mark, where anything goes. But I think most Aussies get it; become part of the greater Australian culture. be accepting of my beliefs and I of yours, and we'll all move ahead.
I know many Aussies: served with them when I was in Germany in the 50s and raced on Long Island Sound against them. Tough fighters/competitors-great friends. Here's to PM John Howard.

Merry Christmas and an Auld lang sygne.

I really have no idea what you are on about?
If by privileged and elite you mean I come from a blue collar background and I worked my arse off to earn my two degrees and graduate diploma - which I am still paying back - absolutely.
I am happy to tolerate anyones beliefs', as long as they play no role in the pursuit of knowledge, the politics of my country or my personnal freedoms.
I am an athiest and a humanist and find killing distasteful, so your disjointed comment about watching people burn is bizarre at best and sadistic at worst???

May I end with an old Australian saying - "May your chooks turn into Emus and kick your dunny down!"

[DADoser]

Originally Posted by stalag8611

Hey, MoMo, I seriously doubt that any member of the teaching profession in the USA, secondary or university level, voted for Bush. Blair, most probably, but not "W'.

Might as well keep "beating the dead horse" of this discussion

I can only speak from my experience - and most of that professional educational experience has been in a fairly conservative state...

When I worked in secondary ed, I taught 2 years in an inter-city high school. I would say that most - but definetly not all - that I worked with there tended to vote Democratic. My next position was in a very affluent public school district (probably the most affluent in the state) - those teachers were more evenly split Democrats/Republicans - and I have a feeling the Republican teachers/educators out numbered the Dems there.

At the University level - trends probably go by Deptments/Colleges: The College of Business and their departments trend Republican/Conservative/Libertarian. The Social Work; Sociology; Education Depts tend to go heavy Democratic or Liberal.

Honestly, the major or discipline tends to shape one's world view as well as one's voting tendencies.

My most direct experience has been with History Depts and Education Colleges (which I already addressed above).

Honestly, from my experience in History classes and with History professors (at least the ones I had) - it was difficult to detect political bias. They did give harsh analysis regarding political decisions (by BOTH sides) and the effects those decision had in shaping the world. Of course that is easy to do looking back at events. It seems History is just as harsh on ineffective policy whether it came from Democrats, Republicans, Whigs, etc. History Depts that I saw had a biased toward pessimism and the reality on the ground. The History department - gave me anyway - a healthy skepticism of policical ideology.

To paint Education - Higher, public, secondary, etc. with such a broad brush is probably not fair, accurate, or balanced. Community and "world view" may shape voting trends more so than simply profession - however, they are all three inter-related factors.



I'll add this as well - Bush's current approval/dissaproval rating have nothing to do with ideology. (I would argue effectively, he is not even close to being a conservative. ) Had everything in Iraq turned out as this administration said it would, Bush's approval rating would probably be the reverse of what they are now. Little to do with ideology - Americans do want competency and success over failed ideology (from either side.) People's opinion of Bush/his Administration is based on his incompetence vs. his ideology.

Americans are "results" oriented. The fact that the U.S. is so partisan-politically divided now, is that NEITHER party is effective at producing results (Since Nixon???). Therefore, we all get entrenched in the ideology and self-righteousnes of our side. No movement; bitter division; No results. At some point, we will get sick of this crap and break out of it.