[mikeb1958]

Originally Posted by Mr. Football

Quote:
"IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture.

"This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom"

"We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language!"

"Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture."



"This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'."

"If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted."

This is also being said here in the USA also. Six months ago here in the USA, there were national protests for "illegal immigrant rights". What the hell?? If you are illegal and did not come through the proper channels and file papers, etc., then you are illegal and DESERVE NO RIGHTS at all! That is the most stupidest thing I have ever heard! You broke that law right off the bat by sneaking over the border and there fore shuld be labeled a "crimmal". If ole Bush wants "National Security" and "Terrorist Attacks" and all this other sillyness..they first thing you must do is seal of the borders ASAP. Walkin' across the desert or wading through water to get to the US illegally by its southern border must be stopped. Not all that come over here are looking for work. Some pregant women that make it over to have their baby(s) on US soil should not be automatically made a US CITIZEN. Our clinics and hospitals are are over-stressed by this. And you wonder why it costs a fortune to go to the doctor or have a surgery. You are paying for those folks. Wake up America!

[mikeb1958]

Originally Posted by SKUNKY

A lot of we Americans ain't even so great at English!

True there Skunky! But at least we know what is being said, for the most part anyway!

[jim]

Well it sounds good to me. I am on my way.

Originally Posted by mikeb1958

Are we talking about the United States here too??? We have the same problem here!!! We are two of a kind for sure! Try going to any country and do that! Alot of countries (the smarter ones it seems) wont let you immigrate there until you have a profession and money. Here is the opposite..."Come here and we will give you money and servies for FREE and here is some money to open your own business and by the way...you don't have to pay ANY taxes for the first 5 years since you are a new-comer here. Now enjoy your new citizenship". Screw that! You can NOT get away with paying no tax for even 1 day if you own your own busines...how fair is that???? And by the way...us Americans need to learn Spanish? (I have been told that many times). How about LEARN ENGLISH???? There are people here that have been living here for 30 years that still can't (and will not) learn English. You want to be come a US citizen but want the rest of us here in USA to accomodate and learn your language? We are stupid.

[DADoser]

Too many issues in this discussion to wade through...

First, illegal is illegal. And illegal is wrong.

Laws, in a democratic society (whether we all agree with them or not) are established through a process. Also in a Republic (U.S.) there are structures in place so the minorities’ freedom/liberty are protected. Designed so a simple majority can’t overrun (or pi$$ all over) the “little guy.”

As far as the principle of assimilation – (not talking “illegals” here)
I thought in a free, liberal, democratic society – the point is that one is free to NOT assimilate. Not learn the language of the majority. (Realize to , that in a free Market society – choosing not to assimilate has huge economic cost for the immigrant or citizen in the minority – i.e. African-American; Asian-American; etc. There is a HUGE free market incentive to assimilate.) Also, in a free society, one can have any ideas/beliefs one wants to have – acts are illegal, not having an “illegal” idea. No thought police in a free society. Rule of law. Probable cause. Habeous Corpus. Etc.

I thought a free society was based on liberty and the freedom to pursue your own happiness. I think somewhere there is an obscure document that says something like this. If my pursuit of happiness for me means not learning English - so what, I will bear the social and economic consequences of this pursuit. (This is a seperate issue than "illegals" living off the government.)

As far as folks living off the government, that bothers me as well – but its not just the “illegals” who are a part of this problem. Even some soldiers in the U.S. draw so little pay that they are using government welfare programs. Walmart employees as well. This is an issue that goes much further than illegals. Last time I was waiting in the emergency room for hours with one of my kids – the waiting room was full of (what I can only assume) were legal U.S. citizens…..well you get the idea without me going further...

As far as security. Yes, we should protect “the West” from radicals who want to kill innocent folks. (maybe we could have started on that one in the U.S. by overlooking the sexual preferences of a group of Arab linguists in the military – call me “crazy” on that one. As well as recruit better, for Arab speaking FBI agents/employees. Etc. etc.)

Finally – this “founded as a Christian nation” thing is just not an honest look at history. (And I’m saying this as someone who is believes in Jesus/Christianity and tries to live the life style.)

Western democracies/law – with all their faults – are the best in the world. Founded on Hammurabi’s code, the Ten Commandments; Ancient Greek/Roman democracies; Natural Law/the Enlightenment – none of which are/were “Christian.” If “Christian” is defined as Christ-like and reflects New Testament values, then Christian nations would have been founded on the values of the Sermon on the Mount, etc. – Christian principles such as – loving and praying for your enemies; selflessness; the first shall be last and the last shall be first; forgiveness; grace; mercy; poor in spirit; humbleness. Show me ANY nation who has a domestic and/or foreign policy truly based on Jesus’ words/teachings.

The concept of a “Christian” nation is an impossible construct and not any part of New Testament Christian theology. Jesus/Paul theology is solely based on an individual’s relationship to God and God’s commandments. (You can even look honestly at Philemon and argue that, according to Paul, a Christian should not stand against slavery.) Nowhere in NT Christianity is the concept of Christians working to create a Christian theocracy through their government. (Shoot, this is the problem we have with Islam at this very point in history!) Nations always act in their self interests – that’s what nations do. It’s the nature of nations. I’m not saying this is wrong – I’m just not sure it is Christian.

An honest reading of the “Render to Caesar what is Caesar’s and god what is God’s” is probably the best NT argument for the modern concept of separation of church and state in the Bible.

The U.S. was founded mostly by a bunch of Deists on principles of natural law and the Enlightenment. Have you seen or read Jefferson’s translation of the New Testament – the one where he edits out all of Jesus’ miracles?

I’m not sure about Australia – but I thought it was founded as a penal colony – An eye for an eye, 10 Commandments, law codes. Was Australia founded as an ancient “Israeli” nation? (read this as a stab at bad humor that may have a point – I don’t know my Australian history nor do I have anything against Australians.)

Intersting discussion/perspectives.

[mikeb1958]

Originally Posted by DADoser

As far as the principle of assimilation – (not talking “illegals” here)
I thought in a free, liberal, democratic society – the point is that one is free to NOT assimilate. Not learn the language of the majority. (Realize to , that in a free Market society – choosing not to assimilate has huge economic cost for the immigrant or citizen in the minority – i.e. African-American; Asian-American; etc. There is a HUGE free market incentive to assimilate.)
I thought a free society was based on liberty and the freedom to pursue your own happiness.


Intersting discussion/perspectives.

I agee with you on points you made but don't on others. I think that the words "free" and "not to assimilate" really can't be used in the same sentence. If you go and let everyone do their own thing, then you will have no national unity and so forth. This country's consitution and national anthem, Bill of Rights, etc was written in English...not spanish, german, arabic
etc. So what are you saying? Just go ahead and print the drivers license test, voters registration, your 8th graders test at school, etc in what....every language that was every created to be "PC" or because? No, I don't think so. What's next? Have them not sware when they become a citizen not to up hold the consitution, etc? As for myself...how about calling me "English-Irish-Pa Dutch American". So, unless you recently migrated from Africa, Asia, Russia, etc yourself...drop the "African-American" or "Asian-American" or "Mexican-American", etc., because we all came from somewhere. Unless your a "Native American Indian". It is like Woopie Goldberg said in the past, "I am not a African-American"..I AM A AMERICAN". Should be nothing else because your great-great-great grandfather came from someother country. So until we get rid of the other titles and everyone here is a "American" then there will be continue to go on as we are now.......

[DADoser]

Originally Posted by mikeb1958

... So what are you saying? Just go ahead and print the drivers license test, voters registration, your 8th graders test at school, etc in what....every language that was every created to be "PC" or because? ..

No not at all. Leave everything in English - nowhere did I say make accomodations. In a society dominated by spoken and written English - the choice of the individual to NOT learn that language has a (negative) cost. AND that idividual is truly exercising his/her freedom - NOT being forced to do something is the very definition of freedom.

To be "successful" (based on the majority definition of success) learning the majority language is crucial. On the other hand - if a Spanish speaking citizen is happy running a hotdog stand (not choosing to participate in English based aspects of U.S. society) and can survive - who cares? Live and let live.

Its a very libertarian perspective.

Also - I have no problem with a unified national identity - I'm just not sure it has to be language or ethnicity or assimilation based. The fact that we are all (legal) citizens of one nation should be enough. There will always be dissent/divergent views in a liberal, diverse, democratic society. Usually a large foreign threat tends to unify everyone around a national identity - i.e. Pearl Harbor (Skysurfer's example - however I'm not sure modern Hawaii is a model of successful cultural assimilation ); 911; the USS Maine; etc.

Also I don't think it matters if African-Americans or others want to refer to themselves as hyphenated-Americans. The Tuskegee Airmen tended to and it took nothing away from their American identity or defending this nation (in spite of overt discrimination laws and American attitudes toward "negroes" - term used to illustrate the point - at that time in history.) There are other numerous examples.

Let people call themselves what they want - to be honest it doesn't effect me. It not something I'm going to get upset over.

I'm not so sure its "diversity" or "liberalism" or "Godlessness" ripping this country or "the West" apart - I think the cause is incompetent, ineffective, corrupt governments. Governments/politicians who are too enamored with their own ideology/power (both sides - right and left) to actually govern in a way that works. Its just too easy to point the finger at someone/something else. (I think Jesus taught about too - splinter in someone else's eye when you have a log in your own.)

[mikeb1958]

Originally Posted by DADoser

No not at all. Leave everything in English - nowhere did I say make accomodations. In a society dominated by spoken and written English - the choice of the individual to NOT learn that language has a (negative) cost.

To be "successful" (based on the majority definition of success) learning the majority language is crucial. On the other hand - if a Spanish speaking citizen is happy running a hotdog stand (not choosing to participate in English based aspects of U.S. society) and can survive - who cares? Live and let live.

A few counties here in Florida tried that a few years back to make "English Only" for county and local goverment offices. But a lawsuit was threaten and later dropped as the ACLU also threaten to step in (Collier county was one-the Fort Myers area). What is the justice in this? It costs the goverment (state and local) twice as much to print papers both in english and spanish. Same with here in Orlando, you can take a drivers exam in both languages. That stinks to say the least! I know there are some international road signs (like Do ot Enter or One Way with the red circle and diagonal bar across) but other signs, info, historic, etc are only in english.I hear all the time here in Orlando "You need to learn spanish". I took spanish in high school and in college and lived in Italy for 2 years (learned Italian enough to get around and even converse some) when I was in the Air Force, but I will be damn that I will speak spanish at the local Walmart or Mickey D's because someone can't speak english here in the USA. Learn english! And if you don't know english (or refuse to learn), don't work behind the counter or in customer service when you deal with people. Had too many problems with orders or ordering, asking questions or whatever because of it.
One local Winn-Dixie (here in Orlando) a few years ago was out of whole chickens. Just wanted one whole or even a cut up fryer. After I finally had to go though two persons to find the meat dept. manager, he didn't understand english very well at all. When I finally got across that I wanted just "one chicken"... "Un pollo", the bozo finally came out with a whole case of 12 frozen chickens and sat the large brown box on top of my shopping cart. Glad they weren't live! I opened and looked in the box and wasn't real happy. I took out just one and said "No bueno" and gave him back the case. This stupid transaction took like 25 mins and my patience was wearing thin by then.
I can tell you other stories like that too that has happened here.

[DADoser]

Mike1958 -

I'm not necessarily an "English only" advocate either. America is a free market democratic society. He who lives by democracy/the free market will die by it as well

With English language in America -

Democraticlly speaking:
With the trend in demographics - we will probably come to the point in the not so distant future where the legal majority is ESL (English as a second language) and the language is changed thru a democratic process. At that point, we may just have to accept that in a democratic society. (At which point I am screwed becasue I only know English. I don't see this happening in our lifetimes.)

from a "free market" perspective:
Business (and government) may need to function in whatever language possible in order to serve their "customers." In your example of the Meat manager - evidently the business hired him and he must make them profit (despite your shi^^y experience with him) or he wouldn't keep his job.

I remember on the old forum, you posted an issue you had with Cinderella speaking Spanish at Disney World. That is a free-market decision made by a private corp. in order to increase profits from and increasing spanish speaking customer base. So what - its all about the free market. (Matbe Cinderella should only speak Austrian or some other Eastern European language only - because that's where the story seems to originate from. )

Governments need to function in whatever language(s) they need to best function in. At this point in the U.S., that may be English and Spanish. (I think Spanish speaking U.S. citizens are in the same tax structure as the rest of us.) Private corporations are going to function in the best laguage(s), in order to maximize profits. Nothing wrong or un-American about that - profits driving business decisions.

I don't think the government should mandate everything bi-lingual (ENG/SPA) or mandate English only. Realistic assessment should be made and documents printed in the language appropriate for the documents use/function. If a road sign in Spanish will help protect a member of my family from a Spanish only reader (citizen; tourist; or illegal) - then I'm all for road signs being in BOTH languages.

(As a side note - I don't want to pay for it either...but then again there are a bunch of U.S. government expenses/programs I'd rather not pay for. Didn't we fight a revolution against over taxation...taxation without representation...or something like that.)

Good discussion - I appreciate the dialog - show day at work.

Take care,
DADoser

[mhackl]

Lifetime terrorist hunting permit holder - #091102
No restrictions

[jim]

Can I have one of those? Ah but I live in Britain and its against the law to defend yourself.

Originally Posted by mhackl

Lifetime terrorist hunting permit holder - #091102
No restrictions