[chiefs70]

Slightly veering off topic - but not by much - here is a list of the recent number of pardons and commutations. I think it is interesting to see how the numbers given have actually decreased lately. Truman and Eisenhower were busy boys.

PARDONS AND COMMUTATIONS

George W. Bush (2001 - )
Pardons -- 13
Commutations -- 4

Bill Clinton (1993-2001)
Pardons -- 396
Commutations -- 61

George H.W. Bush (1989-1993)
Pardons -- 74
Commutations: 3

Ronald Reagan (1981-1989)
Pardons -- 393
Commutations -- 13

Jimmy Carter (1977-1981)
Pardons -- 534
Commutations -- 29

Gerald Ford (1974-1977)
Pardons -- 382
Commutations -- 22

Richard Nixon (1969-1974)
Pardons -- 863
Commutations -- 60

Lyndon Johnson (1963-1969)
Pardons -- 960
Commutations -- 226

John F. Kennedy (1961-1963)
Pardons -- 472
Commutations -- 100

Dwight Eisenhower (1953-1961)
Pardons -- 1,110
Commutations -- 47

Harry Truman (1945-1953)
Pardons -- 1,913
Commutations -- 118

[Old Crow]

the use of pardons (and in this case commuting his sentence) is just as politically driven as the decision to prosecute. I am so weary of both parties - and you may be surprised on which side of the fence I fall politically based purely on this post - seemingly being more focused on posturing and playing "big boy" with each other instead of focusing on issues we Americans want addressed. There is a reason both Democrat led Congress and Republican President Bush have abysmal public approval ratings

You're right on, Chiefs, and I don't think you can find a better example than the failure to pass decent immigration reform or otherwise come up with a palatable plan to better secure the border. But, this sort of political dissatisfaction is very cyclical and the Union seems to keep rolling along, absorbing the bad times and maintaining her strength. Those Founding Fathers were pretty smart guys. In fact, I think they were divinely inspired; how else do you explain such an amazing document as the Constitution.

By the way, don't be surprised if President Bush later pardons Libby when he leaves office. I agree the use of the pardon power is almost always politically motivated but I'm okay with that myself. I wonder where the country would have been had President Ford not pardoned President Nixon.

When will he be letting Duke Cunningham out?...

As usual, Skunky gets right to the issue of greatest import. I think 'ole Duke's only hope is to pull a Paris Hilton and get Lee Baca, the L.A. County Sheriff, on his side.

[DADoser]

Originally Posted by Old Crow

I have to respectfully disagree. It may seem wrong, especially to our non-American members, but the Chief Executive's power to pardon or commute is an integral part of our Constitutional system, intended, among other things, to counter the influence of politics on decisions to prosecute. In my opinion, the special prosecutor came close to entrapment in the investigation of Libby....

(My italics added to Old Crow's quote above.)

1) I'm pretty sure the Founding Fathers, in creating the American Constitutional system had in mind an apolitical Executive (President) with little power (i.e. a counter to the King(s) they were dealing with at the time) that rules in the interest of ALL the American people - not just in THEIR own party, special, or corporate interests. A "uniter" so to speak - not a "divider."

2) I'm not sure the Founding Fathers, in writing the Constitution, envisioned the evolution of the 2 party system and politicalization of the executive as it has become today.

3) As far as the prosecuter coming "close to entrapment" - coming close does not constitute entrapment. Anyway, this would be grounds for the appeal process - which is occurring at this time. If the court system (that we in America seem to be so proud of - well...when it goes our way, anyway ) finds issues with the procecution, then the verdict should and will be overturned.

4) What is the evidence that this was a "political" prosecution? (If this was political, then, for consistency - surely Whitewater was as well. If Whitewater was not political, then neither was this. ?????????????????????????) Just because the side adverslyeffected is yelling "this is political" - does not necessarily, make it so.

5) If you look at the consistency/history of Bush in his approach to pardon's/the justice system - the evidence would lean toward - commuting Libby's sentence- as being very political. (I'm not even saying its right or wrong to commute the sentence - I'm just saying it looks political based on objective non-partisan evidence.)

[George W. Bush (2001 - )
Pardons -- 13
Commutations -- 4]

Remember, as Gov. of Texas Bush wouldn't even stay the execution of a retarded woman at the request of the Pope.

[DADoser]

Originally Posted by Old Crow

... I wonder where the country would have been had President Ford not pardoned President Nixon...

Maybe future Administations - Democrats AND Republicans - would have gotten the message that they would be held accountable for crimes and other B.S. while they were in office.

Given the objective/questionable stuff coming out of Cheney's office (who was in the Ford Administration) I wonder what message he got from Nixon's pardon?

This idea of a strong, powerful executive is counter to TRUE conservatism as well as the intention of the Founding Fathers. It seems modern Republicans don't want a strong executive when a Dem. is in that office, but once the tables turn, so does their perspective. How about some ideological/philosphical consistency?

(Just a thought from one who is cynical about BOTH parties of big government and special interests.)

[Old Crow]

Interesting comments all. I guess I just have a problem sometimes with the whole Special Prosecutor concept as I think special prosecutions have a tendency to drag on for years, suck away enormous taxpayer dollars and become virtual witchhunts in order to justify the special prosecution's existence.

I don't know patrick Fitzgerald an am not an insider, so my knowledge is limited to what I read but I don't believe Fitzgerald was completely candid in this case, and the Rove/Armitage connection is highly relevant, in my opinion, in evaluating the point or pointlessness of the investigation and the statements of Fitzgerald.

In any case, I respect each varying opinion and love the fact we have the freedom to express such differeing viewpoints and opinions.

[DADoser]

Originally Posted by Old Crow

...I don't know patrick Fitzgerald an am not an insider, so my knowledge is limited to what I read but I don't believe Fitzgerald was completely candid in this case, and the Rove/Armitage connection is highly relevant, in my opinion, in evaluating the point or pointlessness of the investigation and the statements of Fitzgerald.

In any case, I respect each varying opinion and love the fact we have the freedom to express such differeing viewpoints and opinions.

I probably agree here and would add...

This probably speaks to the methodology used by procecuters who are investiging criminal acts and if criminal acts have occured. I doubt that any of us would have an issue with a procecuter using these same methods/tactics if s/he were going after a rapist, murderer, or terrorist.

In the case of Libby - different people - some depending on political perspective - see his actions on a continuum. If one thinks what Libby did was "no big deal" then the procecutor was way over the top and "criminal" in his "personal" pursuit of Libby. I think if one "likes Libby" then the the procecution became "personal" and wrong. If one was on the other side, then the procecutor was justified in everything he did (probably didn't do enough) and the issue was NOT about Libby personally, but the BIGGER isue of...Blah, blah, blah.

Again - in clearly defined crimes, in which we can all agree are wrong - rape, murder, etc. - I don't think we would have any issues with the methods applied by the procecutor in the Libby case to those type cases. Heck - we all would probably applaud him/them.

I think, as a procecuter, Fitz??? was using the methods he has learned to do his job successfully. He does have a pretty clean, successful record. Even President Bush seemed to acknowlegde his non-partisanship during the case.


I too am glad we can discuss this and have differing perspectives/opinions.

[DADoser]

Remember when this Administration came in AFTER the Clinton scandals - and promised a HIGHER standard than the "letter of the law" and hiding behind technicalities? To be above legalities and adhere to higher ETHICAL/integrity standards?

Beyond the "legal" - this Administration certantly hasn't met the high "ethical" standard they promised. And I don't buy the argument that somehow 9/11 made it ok to be unethical and/or illegal. [And that's coming from a TRUE conservative perspective.]



President Bush, 2/2/00:
“I will return honor and dignity to the White House. The current President [President Bill Clinton] pledged the most ethical Administration in American history. As it turned out, he fell about 41 Presidents short. The President is the commander in chief of the armed forces. He is the leader of the Free World. He is the voice of the American people. I will return the highest standards of honor to the highest office in the land. This is my pledge. And it does not depend on what the meaning of the word is is.”

Presidential Memo, 1/20/01:
“Everyone who enters into public service for the United States has a duty to the American people to maintain the highest standards of integrity in Government…Public service is a public trust…Employees shall endeavor to avoid any actions creating the appearance that they are violating applicable law or the ethical standards in applicable regulations.”

White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer, 4/24/01:
“Any actions will be taken, as the President indicated on day one of this administration, if you will recall, at an event in the East Room, the President talked about the importance of all members of this administration following all ethics laws and all actions they take should be in accordance with those laws.”


President Bush, 7/22/01:
“We must remember the high standards that come with high office. This begins careful adherence with the rules. I expect every member of this administration to stay well within the boundaries (that) define legal and ethical conduct. No one in the White House should be afraid to confront the people they work for over ethical concerns, and no one should hesitate to confront me as well.”

White House Chief of Staff Andy Card:
“We have an awful lot to do for this country and the President understands that. He expects everyone who is working on his team, and all of you are on his team, to understand first of all the rules, regulations and the law with regard to ethics. But even beyond that, recognize that working on this administration means that you should have the courage to follow the rules, obviously, and stay within the law, obviously. But it’s actually to do more than that. Recognize that you do have a moral compass that tells you what to do and to do the right thing, and we’d like to see everyone do the right thing.”

White House Press Secretary, 6/10/03:
“I think to the President what [the corporate accounting scandal] indicates is a need to have a society of laws where the laws are vigorously enforced, no matter who violates them; and to have ethics that are followed at home and in the workplace and corporate boards. That’s how the President approaches it.”

[DADoser]

Anyone remember the name George Bush gave to his jet airplane during the 2000 presidential campaign?????????????














ACCOUNTABILITY ONE.

I'd buy a diecast model of that, simply for the irony. (And I don't think the Democrats are any better.)

[chiefs70]

Wow, lots of information and research there DADoser. As Old Crow said it is great we can discuss this freely - and that we've kept it from getting heated considering it is politics. Great way to spend part of the day before the 4th of July.

[DADoser]

Originally Posted by chiefs70

Wow, lots of information and research there DADoser. As Old Crow said it is great we can discuss this freely - and that we've kept it from getting heated considering it is politics. Great way to spend part of the day before the 4th of July.

That is the greatness that is the U.S.A.!

Here's to freedom and Liberty.

HAPPY Pre- 4th!