[Captain Eddie]

Read an article in yesterday's newspaper that stated that, contrary to what has been previously reported, the Tuskegee Airmen's escort record may not be perfect. I quote: "Holton, who has been historian of the association for about a decade, said he began leafing through old mission reports after hearing a veteran complain that the Tuskegee Airmen really did lose some bombers." Apparently some of the surviving members were offended by the report, while retired Air Force Lt. General Russell Davis said he will no longer say in his speeches that the group never lost a bomber. "I'm going to drop (it) until we can get this thing clarified. We've got some homework to do, obviously."

The newspaper report also stated that Daniel Haulman, of the Air Force Historical Research Agency, "came to the same conclusion" as Holton.

Thoughts and comments, anyone?

[bsmith13]

Examining the facts is never a bad thing.

[Waltz41]

I saw the same article or something like it, my brother sent it to me. Regardless, the number if they did (if) lose is really low, and still remarkable. Apparently there are thoughts that the Army Air Corp made the claims as a PR move.

[Captain Eddie]

Originally Posted by bsmith13

Examining the facts is never a bad thing.

So true. One Tuskegee member who was upset about this was wondering why they should dredge this up so many years later. I disagree with that
sentiment.

It's not like it would bring dishonor to them.

[PappyB]

Originally Posted by Captain Eddie

So true. One Tuskegee member who was upset about this was wondering why they should dredge this up so many years later. I disagree with that
sentiment.

It's not like it would bring dishonor to them.

Well I imagine they get upset for the same reasons the surviving Flying Tigers do when historians debate their records and kill claims. I can see this vets point of view, but I also believe history should record the truth -- or at least as close to it as possible. Personally, I had my doubts about the claim, just didn't seem possible. However, their service is surely something for all of them to be proud of and for us to be grateful for.

[STARMAN 352ND]

Originally Posted by Waltz41

Apparently there are thoughts that the Army Air Corp made the claims as a PR move.

I read the same thing while back and i have no idea if it's true or not.
But it sure is funny after all these years they would change it.
One thing you must remember the USAAC during that time was not that easy on the Tuskegee Airmen and i don't think it would be a PR move to say they never lost a bomber and besides it took Archer Over 50 years to get credit for his 5th kill and be only negro ace of the war.
Back then i don't think the air force wanted a negro ace and that why they dis-credited him 5th kill and now i think the same thing is happening again
with these two guys Haulman & Holton.
This sounds so much like how others are always trying to take Kills away from Manfred Von Richthofen or Billy Bishop.
But if it's hard core facts that they did really lose a bomber while under the watchfull eye of the Tuskegee airmen then it should be told.
JP

[Warhawk]

By Alvin Benn
Montgomery Advertiser


December 10, 2006

The hallmark of the Tuskegee Airmen success story has been that America's first black fighter pilots never lost a bomber to enemy aircraft during World War II escort missions.
Two historians now say that's just a myth.
Daniel Haulman of Montgomery and William Holton of Columbia, Md., have released documents showing several U.S. bombers were downed by German planes during those Tuskegee Airmen protective flights.
The exact number is unclear, said Haulman, who is white, and Holton, who is black, but they are adamant that bomber losses to enemy planes did occur during missions over enemy territory.
"It's still being stated as fact that no bombers were lost to enemy aircraft, and it's wrong," said Holton, who is the national historian of the Tuskegee Airmen Inc., which was formed to promote and honor the fabled fighter pilots.
A third nationally known military historian indicated Friday that further study may be needed to clarify specific points about the Tuskegee Airmen escort missions.
"Even if they lost three or four bombers, it would still be miniscule compared to the losses incurred by white pilots who also escorted bombers," said Alan Gropman, an author who also teaches at the National Defense University in Washington.
Gropman said Haulman and Holton "may be right" in their findings, "but I'm not convinced and I think it's going to take more readings of those mission reports to settle this once and for all."
Surviving Tuskegee Airmen and authors of military publications have no doubts and continue to insist that no friendly bombers were lost to enemy planes while being escorted by black pilots.
The revelations by Haulman and Holton have had one impact. The president of the Tuskegee Airmen Inc. has altered his position a bit.
"I'm going to drop (references to having no losses) until we can get this thing clarified," retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Russell Davis said late last week. "We've got some homework to do, obviously."
Davis' comments on Nov. 3 at Marion Military Institute, where the Tuskegee Airmen were inducted into the Alabama Military Hall of Honor, prompted Haulman and Holton to discuss publicly what their findings showed.
As other speakers have done in the past, Davis proudly mentioned that no U.S. bombers were lost to enemy planes while being escorted by Tuskegee Airmen.
More than 100 spectators responded with loud applause and cheers, bringing appreciative smiles from three Tuskegee Airmen who attended the event.
Former Tuskegee Airman Carrol Woods of Montgomery, who flew more than 100 missions and spent seven months in a POW camp after being shot down on Oct. 6, 1944, is incensed by the historians' contentions.
"This is outrageous," said Woods, 87, who has been in ill health. "I think they are trying to destroy our record. What's the point now?"
Holton and Haulman said their research was not conducted to denigrate the Tuskegee Airmen or their glittering combat record. They said what they have tried to do is simply "set the record straight."
"I wrote about what the Tuskegee Airmen did, not what they didn't do," Haulman said Friday. "During my research, I discovered documents which convinced me that some of the bombers they escorted were shot down by enemy planes."
Holton said when he mentioned "the myth" at a national meeting of Tuskegee Airmen in Omaha, Neb., two years ago, he got a "hostile" reaction.
"Over the past 60 years, well-meaning, sincere and highly placed speakers have beguiled audiences with the phrase 'the Tuskegee Airmen flew 200 bomber escort missions without losing a single bomber to enemy aircraft gunfire,' " Holton said, in a telephone interview.
Those who make that claim, Holton said, are not "deliberately trying to inflate audience egos, but rather parroting to the listener information he internalized from past speakers."
Holton said he prepared his findings "because the same records that revealed the truth after tedious hours of research will at some future date reveal the same information to a researcher who might use it to impugn the integrity of our national organization."
He said he has known about "the true facts" for several years but did not publicly discuss it in deference to Gen. Benjamin O. Davis Jr., who led the Tuskegee Airmen.
Davis, who died four years ago at age 89, may have unwittingly created the "myth" in his autobiography, said Haulman, who works for the Air Force Historical Research Agency at Maxwell-Gunter Air Force Base.
Haulman said Davis, who received the Distinguished Flying Cross for heroism in World War II, wrote that he received a letter of commendation from his commander stating: "We had the distinction of never losing a single bomber to enemy fighters on an escort mission."
"This letter could not be found among the historical documents at the Air Force Historical Research Agency," Haulman said. "Even so, the other three documents contradict the letter."
Haulman referred to combat mission statements he said clearly show that U.S. bombers were lost while being escorted by Tuskegee Airmen to drop zones.
One mission report states that, on July 26, 1944, "1 B-24 seen spiraling out of formation in T/A (target area) after attack by E/A (enemy aircraft). No chutes (parachutes) seen to open."
A second report, dated Aug. 31, 1944, praises Davis, saying he "so skillfully disposed his squadrons that in spite of the large number of enemy fighters, the bomber formation suffered only a few losses."
A third report said that on Sept. 12, 1944 "10 Me-109s attacked the rear of the bomber formation from below and left one B-17 burning, with 6 chutes seen to open."
"The admirable record of the Tuskegee Airmen needs no myth to bolster it," said Haulman, in a 12-page report about kills recorded by Airmen in dogfights against some of Germany's best fighter pilots.
Haulman said any statement that the black pilots did not lose any bombers was "not one that the Tuskegee Airmen made up, but one that probably originated in a letter of commendation," Haulman said.
Retired Air Force Col. Herbert Carter of Tuskegee, who directed maintenance operations for the Tuskegee Airmen, said, "I can't argue with documents, but I stand by the record that has been presented all these years."
Carter did take issue with Holton, who he said "was not an Airman and is supposed to be a historian."
"I put no value on his research at all," Carter said of Holton. "What makes him an authority 60 years later? He wasn't involved. He's a pushy person."
Haulman pointed out in his report titled, "109 Victories: Aerial Victory Credits of the Tuskegee Airmen," that the controversial decision in Washington to train black fighter pilots won over many detractors.
"The Tuskegee Airmen proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that African-Americans were capable of flying the best of the Allied fighters to victory against the best of the enemy fighters," he wrote. "They earned an indelible place in the history not only of their service, but also in the history of their country and of the world."
Bombers escorted by the Tuskegee-trained pilots were shot down by ground-based anti-aircraft fire and that has never been disputed. Thousands of bombers escorted by white pilots were downed by ground fire during the long war against Germany and Japan.
Tuskegee Airmen Inc.'s Davis said he has questions about whether the downing of bombers might have happened after the Airmen were relieved by other squadrons that picked up the escort mission during long flights to targets.
He indicated that one or more researchers may come to Montgomery to do research on reports about Tuskegee Airmen escort missions.

[mikeb1958]

Originally Posted by Waltz41

I saw the same article or something like it, my brother sent it to me. Regardless, the number if they did (if) lose is really low, and still remarkable. Apparently there are thoughts that the Army Air Corp made the claims as a PR move.

Yes, I agree. I don't think anyone (Tuskegee Airman, The Mighty "8", Super Man, King Kong, The Hulk or whoever) can say that they had a "perfect record" escorting the Bombers across and back without losing one (or a few or whatever) to the Luftwaffe, no matter how good they were. For all the German Aces kills, wether it be one, two or 100, I'm sure they got through the Tuskegee aircover and bagged a B-17, B-24 or whatever type of plane they were protecting at least once, if not twice or several times. Who really knows anyway? Does sound like a PR move though. Oh man...did I open up a can of worms now???

[STARMAN 352ND]

There are three things that come to mind on this.
1.Did they loose a bomber while escorting them ?
2.Where the bombers lost before they were to be escorted?
3.Were the bombers lost after they escorted them ?
I hope they look at all the facts they have before saying to much in public.
JP

[mikeb1958]

Originally Posted by STARMAN 352ND

There are three things that come to mind on this.
1.Did they loose a bomber while escorting them ?
2.Where the bombers lost before they were to be escorted?
3.Were the bombers lost after they escorted them ?
I hope they look at all the facts they have before saying to much in public.
JP

I believe that they have some facts or they wouldn't bring this up some 60 years later. Guess we will wait and see for sure.