[Cruver Collecter]

Originally Posted by Ara1

An I-16 would kill... what books do you have on it? Do you have the Schiffer softcovers?

I would buy at least 1 Rata.

My selection covering the I-16 is pretty slim. I have an old copy of Profile Publications The Polikarpov I-16 Number 122, Polikarpov Fighters in action parts 1&2, and Osprey's Soviet Aces of WWII. I also have some fairly dated information from the 1940s. I have yet to pick up any of the Schiffer titles yet. Currently I am building up my selection of the Aero Details series, I just received issue covering the Bf 110 and have one covering the Zero on the way.

[Cruver Collecter]

Originally Posted by Cruver Collecter

I came across this bit of Brewster Buffalo information awhile back. The Buffalo has one unique distinction; it produced one ace for every thirteen airframes made. There were right around 517 Brewster Buffalo airframes made (This includes the prototype) and there were 39 pilots that scored 5 or more aerial victories in the Buffalo (36 Finish and 3 Commonwealth). This is a fairly impressive record for an aircraft that many consider to be a failure. So far from what I have dug up, the Buffalo looks to also have scored right around 509 aerial victories, almost one victory for every airframe made.

I did a little more digging and came up with the US Marines VMF-221 victory claims for Midway. Looks like the Marines Buffalo pilots scored 6 victories, 1 probably and 2 damaged. So if you add there 6 to the previous 509 (Finnish and Commonwealth) for a total of 515 aircraft brought down by Brewster Buffalos. Comes out to being just shy of one enemy aircraft downed per airframe made, not to bad of a record.

[Epapazian]

Originally Posted by Cruver Collecter

I did a little more digging and came up with the US Marines VMF-221 victory claims for Midway. Looks like the Marines Buffalo pilots scored 6 victories, 1 probably and 2 damaged. So if you add there 6 to the previous 509 (Finnish and Commonwealth) for a total of 515 aircraft brought down by Brewster Buffalos. Comes out to being just shy of one enemy aircraft downed per airframe made, not to bad of a record.

I wonder if the F2As had gun cameras. Prior to these being installed it was common for pilots of both sides of claim two or three times as many "kills" as really occurred. Remember how the Luftwaffe thought they had almost wiped out the RAF's fighter arm before unleashing their last series of mass raids during the BOB. Surprise, surprise---up came hundreds of Spitfires and Hurricanes to challenge the HE-111 and BF-109s.

[Cruver Collecter]

Originally Posted by Epapazian

I wonder if the F2As had gun cameras. Prior to these being installed it was common for pilots of both sides of claim two or three times as many "kills" as really occurred. Remember how the Luftwaffe thought they had almost wiped out the RAF's fighter arm before unleashing their last series of mass raids during the BOB. Surprise, surprise---up came hundreds of Spitfires and Hurricanes to challenge the HE-111 and BF-109s.

Nope, no gun cameras on the Brewster Buffalo. If the number of claims for Midway were a bit higher, say twenty or so, might think over claiming was a issue. With only 6 victories, 1 probable and 2 damaged, seems fairly accurate considering the target rich enviroment. F4F-3 claims were fairly similar with 6 victories and 2 damaged as claims.

[leeG]

The original Buffalo was a dandy little fighter. The export version was lighter than the Navy version, as they didn't have all the Navy mandated equipment. It also suffered from a poor landing gear design in carrier use. Operationally, it never fulfilled it potential with Allied forces as it was numerically overwhelmed. The Finns put it to good use.

The biggest problem was the poor management of the Brewster company. How bad was it? Bad enough to go out of business DURING the war.

A former associate of mine relates a story where, just after Pearl Harbor, the Secretary of the Navy called the Brewster chief engineer and said give me all the Buffalos you can. This chief engineer said he just took that line down and wasn't about to set it back up. The Navy Secretary's next call was to Grumman. The rest is history.

[Ara1]

Originally Posted by leeG

The Navy Secretary's next call was to Grumman...

...who took on, and accomplished, the Herculean task of setting up GM to produce Grumman's a/c... simply incredible during wartime.

Great post LeeG.

[Cruver Collecter]

Oops! I did a bit of an error when figuring out the victory claims by the Finnish Buffalo pilots. My count was only based on the tally of Finnish aces, and that came out to 432. Well I found a list that had a breakdown for all Finnish Brewster Buffalo kills and that came out to 494 Buffalo victories for the Finnish Air Force during WWII. So total now for the Brewster Buffalo is at or about 577 compared to the 517 airframes produced, not to shabby. Finnish achievement is even more so impressive. They downed 494 aircraft with the Buffalo and the most Buffalos they had at any one time was 43 of this type aircraft.

[1250ships]

Originally Posted by Cruver Collecter

Nope, no gun cameras on the Brewster Buffalo. If the number of claims for Midway were a bit higher, say twenty or so, might think over claiming was a issue. With only 6 victories, 1 probable and 2 damaged, seems fairly accurate considering the target rich enviroment. F4F-3 claims were fairly similar with 6 victories and 2 damaged as claims.

Since we have the actual Japanese loss figures we can judge the accuraccy of the claims. Shattered Sword lists 11 aircraft lost, 14 heavily damaged, and 29 more with minor damage. The breakdown:

• Akagi- 1 Zero lost to AA fire, 3 Zeros damaged, 1 Val heavily damaged, 4 Vals minor damage
• Kaga- 1 Zero lost (cause unknown), 1 Zero damaged beyond repair, 1 Val shot down by flak
• Soryu- 3 Kates lost- 1 to fighters and 2 ditched back at the fleet, 5 Kates damaged beyond repair, 10 Kates damaged by usable
• Hiryu- 2 Zeros damaged beyond repair, 5 Kates lost- 3 Kates shot down by fighters, 1 by AA fire, 1 ditched back at fleet, 5 Kates damaged beyond repair, 7 Kates minor damage

The breakdown on the 11 lost aircraft is therefore:

• Fighters- 4 Kates
• AA- 1 Zero, 1 Val, 1 Kate
• Ditched due to damage or lack of fuel- 3 Kates
• Unknown- 1 Zero

If the Midway fighters claimed 12 kills they are clearly too high as only 11 aircraft were actually lost. If you assume all the unknown losses are due to fighters the fighters could have claimed a maximum of 5 aircraft. An overclaim of just over 2-1 sounds about par for the course in WW2.

However this also points out that kills alone do not determine the outcome of battles. Only 11 aircraft were lost but when you add in aircraft damaged so badly that they were unfit to fight and the total is up to 25. That means the Midway attack force lost 23% of its strength in about 30 minutes of combat. The Kates of Hiryu and Soryu took the brunt of the fighting. Out of 35 Kates sent up 4 were shot down, 4 forced to ditch, 9 out of action due to damage, and every other aircraft showed some damage from the enemy. Including aircraft to damaged to be used the Kates of Carrier Division 2 suffered a 48.5% loss rate.

[Cruver Collecter]

Originally Posted by 1250ships

Since we have the actual Japanese loss figures we can judge the accuraccy of the claims. Shattered Sword lists 11 aircraft lost, 14 heavily damaged, and 29 more with minor damage. The breakdown:

• Akagi- 1 Zero lost to AA fire, 3 Zeros damaged, 1 Val heavily damaged, 4 Vals minor damage
• Kaga- 1 Zero lost (cause unknown), 1 Zero damaged beyond repair, 1 Val shot down by flak
• Soryu- 3 Kates lost- 1 to fighters and 2 ditched back at the fleet, 5 Kates damaged beyond repair, 10 Kates damaged by usable
• Hiryu- 2 Zeros damaged beyond repair, 5 Kates lost- 3 Kates shot down by fighters, 1 by AA fire, 1 ditched back at fleet, 5 Kates damaged beyond repair, 7 Kates minor damage

The breakdown on the 11 lost aircraft is therefore:

• Fighters- 4 Kates
• AA- 1 Zero, 1 Val, 1 Kate
• Ditched due to damage or lack of fuel- 3 Kates
• Unknown- 1 Zero

If the Midway fighters claimed 12 kills they are clearly too high as only 11 aircraft were actually lost. If you assume all the unknown losses are due to fighters the fighters could have claimed a maximum of 5 aircraft. An overclaim of just over 2-1 sounds about par for the course in WW2.

However this also points out that kills alone do not determine the outcome of battles. Only 11 aircraft were lost but when you add in aircraft damaged so badly that they were unfit to fight and the total is up to 25. That means the Midway attack force lost 23% of its strength in about 30 minutes of combat. The Kates of Hiryu and Soryu took the brunt of the fighting. Out of 35 Kates sent up 4 were shot down, 4 forced to ditch, 9 out of action due to damage, and every other aircraft showed some damage from the enemy. Including aircraft to damaged to be used the Kates of Carrier Division 2 suffered a 48.5% loss rate.

One of the Buffalo claims also took place prior to main engagement on 4 June 1942. Claim was a Mavis and this claim was made on 10 April 1942. So actual claims for 4 June 1942 would have been 11.

This is the breakdown of claims from the ANNALS OF THE BREWSTER BUFFALO site.
April 10th, 1942
Capt. James L. Neefuss (211-MF-1) Mavis Flying Boat
June 4th, 1942
Capt. Clayton M. Canfield (F4F-3 #25) Aichi 99 DB
Capt. John F. Carey (F4F-3 #22) Aichi 99 DB
Capt. Marion E. Carl (F4F-3 #24) A6M Zero; +2 A6M Zeros Dam.
2Lt. Roy A. Corry Jr. (F4F-3 #27) A6M Zero; Aichi 99 DB
Capt. James P. McCarthy (F4F-3 #26) A6M Zero
Capt. William C. Humberd (F2A-3 MF-15) B5N2 Bomber; A6M Zero; B5N2 Bomber Dam.
Capt. Kirk Armistead (F2A-3 MF-13) Aichi 99 DB Prob.
2Lt. Charles M. Kunz (F2A-2 MF-17) 2 Aichi 99 DB
Capt. Philip R. White (F2A-3 MF-11) Aichi 99 DB; Aichi 99 DB Dam.

[1250ships]

Originally Posted by Cruver Collecter

One of the Buffalo claims also took place prior to main engagement on 4 June 1942. Claim was a Mavis and this claim was made on 10 April 1942. So actual claims for 4 June 1942 would have been 11.

This is the breakdown of claims from the ANNALS OF THE BREWSTER BUFFALO site.
April 10th, 1942
Capt. James L. Neefuss (211-MF-1) Mavis Flying Boat
June 4th, 1942
Capt. Clayton M. Canfield (F4F-3 #25) Aichi 99 DB
Capt. John F. Carey (F4F-3 #22) Aichi 99 DB
Capt. Marion E. Carl (F4F-3 #24) A6M Zero; +2 A6M Zeros Dam.
2Lt. Roy A. Corry Jr. (F4F-3 #27) A6M Zero; Aichi 99 DB
Capt. James P. McCarthy (F4F-3 #26) A6M Zero
Capt. William C. Humberd (F2A-3 MF-15) B5N2 Bomber; A6M Zero; B5N2 Bomber Dam.
Capt. Kirk Armistead (F2A-3 MF-13) Aichi 99 DB Prob.
2Lt. Charles M. Kunz (F2A-2 MF-17) 2 Aichi 99 DB
Capt. Philip R. White (F2A-3 MF-11) Aichi 99 DB; Aichi 99 DB Dam.

Interesting that most of the claims are for Vals because the only Val lost was an AA kill over the islands. Perhaps the fact that the Kates were all carrying bombs resulted in misidentification. The main target of the fighters was the Kates, not the Vals. There should be lots of damage claims against Kates but only Capt. Humberd claimed any Kates damaged.

Also I presume that the claims are all from those who survived the engagement. Always possible that some of the actual kills were from pilots that did not survive the battle.

The Japanese pilots all seem to have felt that the American fighters were not very effective and that they did their damage in the first pass when the Japanese were taken by surprise. On the other hand they all seemed to have been impressed with the quantity and accuraccy of the American anti-aircraft fire from Midway. That to me indicates that much of the damage was due to AA not fighters.

All in all a good example of the confusion of air to air combat and its effect on kill claims.