[panzercommander]

Originally Posted by 1250ships

If any of you haven't read "Shattered Sword" you need to. It will challenge many of the things you think you know about Midway. Highly recommended.

I have had this book in my wishlist at Amazon for awhile but being cheap, I am waiting for paperback.
"A Glorious Page in Our History: The Battle of Midway, 4-6 June, 1942" by Robert Cressman is regarded by many to be the definitive book on the battle. Also, John Lundstrom's "The First Team" is an excellent source.

[Captain Eddie]

Sounds like a book I will have to read. I'm with panzercommander, however, so I will soon be visiting my local library!

[mustangdriver]

I have a signed 8x10 of Vajesta in his SBD. Really a great story.

[Captain Eddie]

Originally Posted by Captain Eddie

Sounds like a book I will have to read. I'm with panzercommander, however, so I will soon be visiting my local library!

just visited my local library, reserved the book, should have it in 3 to 5 days!

[skysurfer808]

Regarding Shattered Sword's assertion that Torpedo 8s sacrifice was in vain, this is quite true. According to the chronology of the attack, which I do not have on me unfortunately, Torpedo 8 did attack about an hour before the SBDs came in. However, Torpedo 3 and Torpedo 6 did attack in the time before the immediate attack. I wrote a historiographical essay in college about the myths of Midway. One of them was unfortunately how Torpedo 8's attack was basically wasted. Lt. Cmdr Waldron led the squadron against the Japanese fleet and was the first carrier based torpedo squadrons to attack. However, Torpedo 3 arrived only minutes before the rest of the Yorktown Air Group, indeed the Yorktown Group was the only one to launch anything even resembling a coordinated attack. Out of the other two groups, only Hornet's Torpedo 8 attacked from its parent group, the remainder of the Hornet squadrons searched fruitlessly, lost their fighters to fuel starvation, and eventually recovered at Midway. Out of the Enterprise group Torpedo 6 also sacrificed most of its planes, and it was only luck that CAG McClusky managed to find the Japanese fleet with his SBDs. The Enterprise Group's Fighting 6 orbited fruitlessly over the Japanese fleet, they made no effort to cover the TBDs of any of the carrier groups. The Yorktown group launched with fighter escort covering its TBDs, the escort was led by Lt. Comdr Jimmy Thach himself. His small covering force found itself embroiled in a large dogfight with the Japanese CAP. This was the first use of the Thach weave in combat, because of it Thach managed to shoot down 3 Zeroes and his wingman 1. More importantly, Fighting 3's escort flight managed to divert the Japanese fleet's CAP and provide some protection for the TBDS of Torpedo 3. Unfortunately the Wildcats had to fight for their lives, and the Yorktown TBDs were also virtually annihilated. Chronologically it was the actions of Thach's escort and Torpedo 3 that sucked the Japanese CAP down and cleared the way for the Enterprise and Yorktown SBDs to inflict havoc on the Japanese fleet. Even so, the Enterprise SBDs did suffer heavy losses to Zeroes. Still, they managed to bomb Akagi and Kaga, while the Yorktown SBDs took out Soryu.

I suspect that the sacrifice of Torpedo 8 was highlighted to overshadow the miserable performance of the rest of the Hornet Group. The men of that squadron were heroes all right, the tragedy is that their loss chronologically did not have the impact historic myth has enshrined it with.
I have not read shattered sword, but Lundstrom's First Team clearly shows the progress of the battle, and illustrates the importance of fighter's to the Midway battle.

As the above shows, I'm definately a Midway buff, especially since the battle was so important to Hawaii's fate. Logistics aside, had the Japanese fleet won there, it would have been difficult to have stopped them from ranging across the rest of the Pacific. Japan would have had its Tsushima style battle of annihilation, but instead the annihilating was done by the American side.

Skysurfer808

[panzercommander]

Originally Posted by skysurfer808

This was the first use of the Thach weave in combat, because of it Thach managed to shoot down 3 Zeroes and his wingman 1.

Would make a great episode of Dogfights.

1250ships might be able to confirm this but I believe another myth busted in "Shattered Sword" is that all 4 of the Japanese carriers were in fact scuttled to free the destroyer screen for a night surface attack, instead of sinking on their own accord. Apparently, this has been common knowledge in Japan for several decades.

[1250ships]

Should note there is a book specifically about the American torpedo squadrons at Midway called The Unknown Battle of Midway: The Destruction of the American Torpedo Squadrons by Alvin Kernan. Kernan was a 18 year old sailor on the Enterprise during the battle. Haven't read it myself but might be an interesting read. However based on what Amazon says it seems to perpetuate the myth that the torpedo planes drew the CAP down to allow the dive bombers in.

[1250ships]

Originally Posted by panzercommander

Would make a great episode of Dogfights.

1250ships might be able to confirm this but I believe another myth busted in "Shattered Sword" is that all 4 of the Japanese carriers were in fact scuttled to free the destroyer screen for a night surface attack, instead of sinking on their own accord. Apparently, this has been common knowledge in Japan for several decades.

It did discuss this but I don't remember the conclusion other than it was similar to the situation with the Bismarck. By the time they were sunk the carriers were useless and doomed no matter what the end cause of sinking.

[bsmith13]

Mr. Kiernan's book is on my "to read" list. Correct me if I am wrong; I thought that the attack of the various torpedo squadrons actually did require at least some of the Japanese CAP aircraft to refuel and rearm...it just didn't pull down all the CAP, and the Japanese had time to replenish the CAPs before the dive bombers showed up. Does this sound correct? I will need to read Shattered Sword again.

I am in the middle of the first "First Team" book right now - the Lexington is about to get clobbered.