[skysurfer808]

Originally Posted by Shawn 507

So whats the dope on the other two HM Dauntless birds? Anyone?
- Shawn

The Prewar Airplane is from Bombing Squadron 2, which was stationed aboard the U.S.S. Lexington. A close glance at Diecast Ace's site shows the model's bureau number to be 2108, more on the significance of this later. Its livery is classic prewar, but the navy soon switched to an all light gray scheme, then to the familiar Blue-Gray over light gray. VB-2 had flown Curtiss SBC's prior to that, and was teamed up with Scouting Squadron 2 until Coral Sea. The unit participated in strikes agains the Japanese at Lae-Salamaua in New Guinea, and assisted in the destruction of the Shoho along with Torpedo 2.

The Midway VMSB-241 airplane would have been an SBD-2, which had only just arrived at the squadron. Interestingly its Dauntlesses were transferred primarily from Bombing 2. The unit operated a mixed bag of Dauntlesses and Vought SB2U Vindicators. Originally an all Vindicator unit, VMSB-241 was aboard the U.S.S. Lexington on the way to Midway when Pearl Harbor was attacked. The squadron returned ashore, and flew itself to Midway from Oahu on December 17th 1941, on an epic 1200 mile 9 hour journey that was hailed as the longest formation flight of single engined aircraft up to that time. At Midway they received SBD reinforcements only on May 26, 1942, leaving them very little time to properly train in thim.

VMSB-241 sent a formation of 18 Dauntlesses and 12 Vindicators against the Japanese fleet on June 4th 1942, out of which 16 and 11 actually made the attack. Because of the inexperience of the majority of the squadron's aviators, they performed a glide bombing attack, rather than a steeper dive bombing run. This left the squadron more exposed to enemy fire, and 8 of its Dauntlesses were lost, including Squadron commander Major Henderson. The squadron also lost 5 Vindicators, 3 shot down and 2 which ran out of gas on the way back to Midway.

VMSB-241 continued flying throughout the battle of Midway, being sent on a dusk sortie later on the 4th. This flight was composed of 6 surviving SBDs and 5 SB2Us. Unfortunately Major Norris became its only casualty when he crashed into the sea upon his flights return to Midway. On the 5th of June, VMSB-241 sent its remaining 6 Dauntlesses and 6 Vindicators on its final strike of the battle. They struck the Cruiser Mikuma, and during that attack the squadron lost Captain Richard Fleming, who crashed his mortally hit Vindicator onto the rear turret of the Mikuma.

Here's the kicker of this whole post. Modelbuilder Joe Lyons built a 1/48 Accurate Miniatures kit into SBD-2 Bureau Number 2106. His research showed that this airplane was painted at the factory in the bright yellow winged prewar livery and delivered to the Navy at the end of 1940. It served in the squadron for over a year, before being transferred for a major repair, then to the Fleets Aircraft pool. It then was sent to VMSB-241 on May 26, 1942, participated in the Battle of Midway with the squadron, and survived to be shipped back to the US to fly as an advanced trainer. The aircraft crashed into Lake Michigan on a training flight, and was recovered and restored for the National Naval Aviation Museum at Pensacola. It is on display there as the only known surviving Midway veteran aircraft.

Unfortunately Hobbymaster got its numbers wrong, its VB-2 SBD has bureau number 2108, close but not quite there. The VMSB-241 airplane is 2178, also wrong. Still, I find it interesting that Hobbymaster managed to model two distinct liveries that depict what could have been the same airplane at different times in its career.

Skysurfer808

Sources

Midway Combat Narrative Office of Naval Intelligence
The Battle of Midway

Here is a page by modelbuilder Joe Lyons on Hyperscale.com
"Marines at Midway Part 1 - VMSB-241 & SBD-2 BuNo 2106" by Joe Lyons (Accurate Miniatures 1/48)

Here is a link to Accurate Miniatures research site.
Accurate Miniatures' VMSB-241, 5 June 1942 - "White 2," BuNo 2088

[STARMAN 352ND]

Does anyone have a picture of Vejasa's real Dauntless at the time ?
That be a big help.
This got me thinking if there are copyright issues of using a pilots name before a plane can be made?
JP

[bsmith13]

I bow to the superior research skills of skysurfer.

[skysurfer808]

Originally Posted by bsmith13

I bow to the superior research skills of skysurfer.

Thanks Bsmith13, especially hearing it from a Military professional such as yourself.

Note: There might be some confusion on number designations, so to head it off, VMSB-241 was originally VMSB-231 while aboard the Lex, it was redesignated in March 1 1942 to 241. The number was transferred elsewhere, the men and planes remained the same. One of them was Captain Elmer "Iron Man" Glidden, who led 241's second division of SBDs during the first day of the battle, thus cementing his place in the annals of Marine Aviation heroes. Also, SBD-2 BuNo 2106 returned from the June 4th mission with over 259 holes and it's pilot's throat mike shot away. It's pilot on that fateful day was Lieutenant Daniel Iverson, who later served at Guadalcanal, and was subsequently killed in a crash back in the USA.

VMSB-241's attack on the Japanese fleet inflicted little damage upon them. According to postwar interviews and Admiral Nagumo's account of Midway, the squadron was responsible for 3 near misses on the Kaga at 0830 and 4 on the Hiryu at 0850. One of the squadron's aircraft also strafed Hiryu, killing 4 men. Because they flew shallow glide bombing approaches, the squadron was more vulnerable to the fleets combat air patrol, and most of its losses were shot down by Zeroes. Major Henderson was the first Marine aviator shot down, and Captain Glidden took over the SBD formation and led its survivors through the attack and home. The Vindicators attacked the Japanese battleship Haruna, and suffered 2 shootdowns and 2 more losses due to fuel starvation. They did manage to claim a Zero shot down, and probably inflicted a near miss on Haruna.

One interesting fact of the battle is that the USAAF claimed to have inflicted the majority of damage on the Japanese fleet. USAAF B-17s flew back to Oahu on June 5th, and gave interviews which portreyed themselves as the winners of the battle. Brigadier General Willis Hale "expressed the belief that the Battle of Midway was primarily won in the blasting by the Flying Fortresses of the Japanese Naval Task Force, including carriers." This was published in the New York Times on June 12th 1942, after a June 9th editorial stated "So far as we can now learn the main damage to the Japanese fleet was inflicted by our land based planes."

This myth was perpetuated in the contemporary war film Air Force, which chronicled the adventures of the early small tail B-17 Mary Ann. In this picture, the brave crew of the Mary Ann fly into the attack on Pearl Harbor, dodge snipers on Maui, fly on to Wake island, then end up on the Philippines. They jury rig a tailgun for their machine, and participate in numerous strikes against the Japanese. The movie climaxes in a sea battle, where the Mary Ann cooperates with Carrier based aircraft to sink a Japanese fleet. Of course high level bombing of ships is an exercise in futility, as fast moving ships have ample time to dodge dumb bombs dropped from 30,000 feet. It was up to the 5th Air Force to discover the proper way of using bombers to attack ships by skip bombing. Still, the B-17s did contribute to the battle by locating the Japanese task force early in the engagment, a function the B-17s performed well during the war.

Interestingly enough, the name of one of the B-17 that attacked the Japanese fleet at Midway was Yankee Doodle. I haven't been able to research the plane's serial number history, but film evidence from John Ford's Midway leads me to conclude that this could have been the same B-17E depicted in Corgi's release of the kit. Ford's color film shows B-17s on Midway in a similar livery, and the AAF diverted numerous Fortresses to the Pacific in early 1942. Many of these aircraft subsequently returned to the States and flew to the UK during the buildup of the 8th Air Force. Therefore it is quite possible that Corgi's Yankee Doodle depicts a B-17 that fought at Midway, then carried General Ira Eaker on the 8th Air Force's first combat mission.

Skysurfer808

Sources

History of Marine Corps Aviation in World War II, by Robert Sherrod.
This is one of the better sources on Marine Air during the war, written in its immediate aftermath, it is a fine compilation of material relating to the contribution of USMC aviation during the war.

Incredible Victory by Walter Lord
A fine overview of the battle by a great maritime author.

John Ford's Battle of Midway DVD.
Great contemporary color film of the Battle. Shows B-17s at Midway, F4Fs, SBDs and TBDs launching on the 4th, and survivors rescued at sea in the battle's aftermath. There's also a famous oft used clip of SBDs on the way to the Japanese fleet.

[bsmith13]

I love finding a fellow Battle of Midway enthusiast! I've read "Incredible Victory" and "Miracle at Midway" many times. May I recommend "Shattered Sword" by Parshall and Tully?

[Captain Eddie]

Originally Posted by bsmith13

I love finding a fellow Battle of Midway enthusiast! I've read "Incredible Victory" and "Miracle at Midway" many times. May I recommend "Shattered Sword" by Parshall and Tully?

Well, you just found another one! I think reading Walter Lord's book turned me into a BoM enthusiast, I also have read it 3 or 4 times, and more recently bought the hard cover edition at a used book store.

Read Miracle at Midway more recently, loved it also.







(

[1250ships]

Originally Posted by bsmith13

I love finding a fellow Battle of Midway enthusiast! I've read "Incredible Victory" and "Miracle at Midway" many times. May I recommend "Shattered Sword" by Parshall and Tully?

If any of you haven't read "Shattered Sword" you need to. It will challenge many of the things you think you know about Midway. Highly recommended.

[Captain Eddie]

Originally Posted by 1250ships

If any of you haven't read "Shattered Sword" you need to. It will challenge many of the things you think you know about Midway. Highly recommended.

So how am I supposed to know the truth about the battle?

[1250ships]

Originally Posted by Captain Eddie

So how am I supposed to know the truth about the battle?

Like all history you have to read and decide for yourself. "Shattered Sword" in part argues that most of the Western accounts of the battle are flawed because they rely on Fuchida's 1951 book for the Japanese side of the battle. That account is clearly wrong as and a good part of "Shattered Sword" is devoted to explaining why. If you build your view of one side of a battle on one source who turns out to have reasons to obscure the truth you shouldn't be surprised that it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Historically speaking it typically takes 50-60 years or more to get a fully view of an event. The first accounts are usually limited or wrong. Imagine writing a history of Midway and not knowing about the code breaking. In the case of Midway we have suffered from a lack of Japanese data primarily because few of us in the West speak and read Japanese. Much of what is in "Shattered Sword" has been common knowledge in Japan for years. As the book states, "Fuchida's account has been overturned in Japan for more than 20 years. Yet, in the West, he has remained as authoriative as on the day his book was first published." And, "It is only recently that information on Japanese doctrine began to be employed in the study of the Pacific War." "Shattered Sword" marks the first use of many Japanese sources in a Western account of the battle.

To give you an idea here are a number of Midway myths "Shattered Sword" claims to challenge. Everything listed here is argued to be untrue by the book:

• "At the time of the decisive American dive-bomber attack at 1020-1025 on 4 June, the Japanese carriers were just minutes away from launching a dcisive counterattack against the American carriers."
• "The Aleutians Operation was an elaborate feint designed to lure the American fleet out of Pearl Harbor."
• "The late launch of the cruiser Tone's scout plane doomed Admiral Nagumo's efforts to win the battle".
• "Had Nagumo not decided to rearm his aircraft with land attack weapons he would have been in a postion to attack the AMericans as soon as they were discovered."
• "The sacrifice of Torpedo Eight was not in vain, since it pulled the Japanese CAP fighters down to sea level, thereby allowing the American dive-bombers to attack."
• "...in defeating the Japanese the Americans miraculously triumphed against overwhelming odds."

I suspect the claims about the torpedo bombers is the most shocking because I think we all are used to reading about how their attack drew the Zeros down to low level enabling the dive-bombers to approach without being attacked. But when you examine the evidence it is pretty clear that as much as we would like to credit the sacrifice of the Devastator crews for opening the door in reality they did not do this. They attacked at least an hour before the dive-bombers arrived leaving plenty of time for the CAP to re-establish itself.

The book is also an excellent primer on Japanese carrier tactics. Japanese carrier operated differently than US carriers and the book is worth reading just to understand how the Japanese doctrine worked.

[STARMAN 352ND]

Now you guys got me all starting up on the Midway topic.
I have both Midway movies by John Ford.
The first "Midway/Global War" 1942 by John Ford has B/W & Color flim in it and i'll watch it again later in the week the Midway program is about 20 mins long with real footage.
The other is the 1976 "Midway" Movie with Heston and Fonda to name a few.
Just by watching "Dogfights" last week really brought this topic alive
This is some great stuff you guys are posting here.
JP