[Kiwi Dave]

Originally Posted by skysurfer808

Thus the Hornet performed as advertised, and that sortie was instrumental in convincing Navair leadership that the Hornet was the way to go.

Skysurfer808

That must have been before they realised that the first Coalition loss of the war was a USN Hornet shot down by an Iraqi Mig-25.

[ZS-VAN]

Nice insights on the Mirage F1 and the Mig 25 guys. We really hear so little detail about the other side.

[Hoverbug]

Originally Posted by Kiwi Dave

That must have been before they realised that the first Coalition loss of the war was a USN Hornet shot down by an Iraqi Mig-25.

I think that was a Tomcat, not a Hornet.

[flyXwire]

I highly recommend this book from OSPREY.

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_452.shtml

[Kiwi Dave]

Originally Posted by Hoverbug

I think that was a Tomcat, not a Hornet.

Hey What! It was a Hornet 163484/AA-403 of VFA-81 off USS Saratoga, shot down on the first night raid on 17 January 1991, pilot killed. Was first thought to have been shot down by ground fire but is now accepted that it was downed by a Mig-25.

[SKUNKY]

The only F-14 loss during the Gulf War was to a SAM...

[RJLee]

A note on the F-14 combat record in IRIAF service: the claims made in the Cooper book are controversial, as they have sourcing problems (and are essentially unverifiable). This doesn't mean that they are untrue, but when you have claims that an Iranian F-14 killed four Iraqi MiGs with one Phoenix missile, this really requires better documentary evidence than what Cooper provides.

As for the F-14 record in USN service during ODS, it's true that the only air-to-air kill was a VF-1 Hip. However, this is also a sore point that many believe has more to do with the mission taskings imposed upon Navy F-14s by CENTAF planners. The F-14s were simply never placed in a position to bag any MiGs (the reasons for which get complicated and vary depending on who's being asked). (In fact, apart from the Fox/Mongillo victories on the first night, all U.S. fixed-wing air-to-air victories belonged exclusively to USAF F-15Cs -- no F-16s either.)

I tend to doubt that the Fox/Mongillo mission on 1/17 had a big impact on the F/A-18 vs. F-14 debate, which for all intents and purposes already had been finally decided at the SecDef level by then. The F-14 tooling had already been ordered destroyed in 1990.

[Kiwi Dave]

I have a book called "Iran-Iraq War in the Air 1980-1988" by Tom Cooper and Farzad Bishop. This is a must have book if you are interested in this war, gives a very detailed account of the air war, almost day to day account of missions, victories and losses. Written more from an Iranian point of view than Iraqi, but that maybe because the Iraqi's weren't so forthcoming with information.

As for Desert Storm you are right about the USAF/F-15's wanting all the glory. There were several instances where RAF Tornado's and French Mirage 2000's were held back and USAF F-15's were vectored from further away for the intercept. The shooting down of 2 Iraqi Mirage F1EQ's by a Saudi F-15C was clearly for publicity.
A USMC AV-8B had an encounter with a Mig-21, but as the pilot later said, "I was there to kill tanks, not to yank and bank" and wasn't prepared to see which aircraft was better at dogfighting!

[skysurfer808]

Originally Posted by Kiwi Dave

That must have been before they realised that the first Coalition loss of the war was a USN Hornet shot down by an Iraqi Mig-25.

Actually the Speicher loss was controversial in and of itself, since his wingman called a bandit and saw the flash of explosion from the Hornet's destruction. And Speicher was listed as MIA rather than KIA as there was evidence he had survived. It appears that the US wouldn't admit there was an air to air loss, and as it involved Command and Control issues, it was buried. As for the Hornet taking over Navair, yes Dick Cheney as SecDef had made the decision to buy the Super Hornet, rather than the Super Tomcat, cancelling Grumman's upgrade contract, and limiting D models only around 50 or so airplanes (both new production and upgrades.) Apparantly the OpCost issue raised its head, and Cheney made the decision based on cost analysis. Looking at the Box score in USN service, the Tomcat had a 5 to 1 Victory Loss ratio, which compares very favorably to USN performance in prior wars. Meanwhile, the Hornet has a proven ratio of 2 to 1, which puts it about in the same category as the F-4, another multi-role machine. What this tells me is that its better to modify a fighter to be a bomber than a bomber to be a fighter. This is common sense, but sometimes airplanes need to prove themselves in combat. The Tomcat's performance made a superior air to air platform and an above average mud mover. Its passing is to be mourned.

Skysurfer808