[planenuts]

[Captain Eddie]

So, Hornchurch, just to clarify, you are saying that the Royal Navy could not have done much to prevent the Germans from invading England in the fall of 1940?

I'm not really agreeing or disagreeing, as I do not know enough about the RN to have an informed opinion, just wanted to clarify.

[Hornchurch]

Originally Posted by Captain Eddie

So, Hornchurch, just to clarify, you are saying that the Royal Navy could not have done much to prevent the Germans from invading England in the fall of 1940?

I'm not really agreeing or disagreeing, as I do not know enough about the RN to have an informed opinion, just wanted to clarify.

About as much use as a frogsuit in the Sahara.

Don't take my word for it - study the individual instances that I've put forward from memory alone in my previous post # 10

Take HMS Hood out of the equation & these losses were in exchange for what exactly ???

Could the R.N. look after itself ?

- THERE ARE PLENTY MORE - I just don't have the material facts/reference sources here.

Force 'Z' - a pompous (delusional) Admiral who refused fighter cover (Hurricanes from Malaya)..... "We can look after ourselves, Thanks"

Yeah, right - 4,000 brave sailors pay with their lives for that chesnut of wisdom.

The facts speak for themselves, check it out.

No R.A.F. = German invasion.

A well orgasnised Royal Navy would be a threat - but past events '39 - '41 prove that R.N. is unlucky & mis-managed by 'Maginot' like outdated thinking/planning/tactics/execution.

[panzercommander]

While you cite some excellent examples of Royal Navy cock-ups, I think the Kriegsmarine would be inclined to disagree with you. If there was one branch of armed service in the summer of 1940 who didn't want to see the Luftwaffe succeed it was the German Navy. There was simply no way a fleet of river barges could support an invasion across the channel against the Royal Navy and the weather.

All of this ignores the fact that Hitler himself didn't want to invade Britain, he more less just wanted to be left alone while his attention turned eastwards. Had Germany established air superiority over Southern England, what would have been their next move? While the Battle of France was a stunning victory, the German army had taken serious casualties in doing so and was in no condition to launch a major seaborne invasion had the naval forces even been available to do so. The Luftwaffe's assault on Britain was poorly planned and had no real strategic or tactical aims, nor did it have the resources to withstand the attrition that would come with engaging the most advanced air defense system in the world. The kill ratios the German fighter groups would have had to attain to be successful and still have any strength left to cover an invasion were absurdly optimistic. Don't get me wrong, the courage and sacrifice of the British fighter and bomber pilots, ground crews, radar operators, etc...is as awesome as that of any battle in history. But in many aspects, the Battle of Britain was over before it even started, all that remained was needless loss of human life.

Oh my, where did all that come from? I'm missing the Yankee game.

[bsmith13]

Panzercommander, I can't disagree with what you are saying. At least not seriously. However, saying that the Battle of Britain was over before it started is sort of like saying that from a Japanese point of view, the war in the Pacific was over before it started. Yes, it's true. Yes, there was a terrible waste of life and material. But the preconceptions of the people in power (Hitler, Goering, Tojo, Yamamato) shaped the foreign policy and application of military power at the time. The facts are that for whatever reason, Germany committed the Luftwaffe to the Battle of Britain in hopes of destroying the RAF, preparatory to invading.

Now if you can indulge me after my tirade about revisionist "what-if" scenarios, I have my own analysis. We know that Hitler didn't really want to invade England, but he was sort of in a cleft stick of his own cutting. England had appeased him at Munich. When England finally decided they had had enough when Poland was invaded, I think it caught Hitler by surprise. I believe that he thought England would just ignore him. Blitzkreig succeeded in the autumn of '39, and again in the spring of '40, and these successes probably taught him (as commander-in-chief) that the weapons he had forged in the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe were even better than he had thought. I personally think Hitler was mentally unbalanced long before 1939, but it is possible that Victory Fever struck him at this time, and he began to believe the myth of his own invincibility. After France fell, I believe that he was still amazed that England hadn't acquiesced to his peace terms. And since they weren't playing ball, he would make life miserable for them. "Wir werden sie ausradieren!"

Beyond a doubt, the Kriegsmarine was not equipped to carry out an invasion the way Hitler forsaw it. But if the Luftwaffe (with a more astute leader than Goering turned out to be) had continued bombing RAF airfields with the stated and understood objective of making the RAF pull back from the east Anglian coasts (especially if this had happened in a timely manner), it is conceivable that Hitler would have ordered the Kriegsmarine and the Wehrmacht to attempt an invasion. I do not believe Germany would have been successful in the long run, as there are way too many logistical problems that were unaddressed (Hitler was famous for ignoring logistics). But I think it is possible that Hitler could have ordered his armed forces to attempt it.

[jim]

Thank you Hornchurch for the wise words. Its always the same, when you have a failed and very average historian who thinks he is somebody and wants to prove that he can chew gum and f..t at the same time.( sorry about that but if its good enough the the US president to say its good enough for me) So all they do is say something outrageous and "presto" fame of a sort. I think you are a bit hard on the navy old boy. Sommerville was a superb tactician and Admiral. We needed a few more like him. but i take your point. The navy was in no position to stop the German army thats for sure. Would anyone like to sail around in 22 miles of water that is 4 minutes flying time from numerous Luftwaffe bases. All those Stukas sitting waiting!!!QUOTE=Hornchurch;7426]Sorry to disagree with your above quotes Iroquois, but my country's navy were never put to that ultimate 'invasion' test in W.W.II.


In peacetime, now, using slow Ro/Ro Cross-Channel ferries, you can drive your 38 Tonne Articulated Lorry (Rig) from England to the French coast (unloading) in 90 minutes, yes, 90 minutes.
I've done it countless times personally.
If, (big if, here) the Nazi's had invaded our coastline, they would have been somewhat faster (or at least that fast) in disgorging their troops/38t's/Mk II's/III's/Protze's etc, probably at night.

in store......like the R.N.'s inability to deal with the famed Channel dash - 3 German capital ships (+ others) in broad daylight, from Brest - to Northern Germany, a massive & fruitless embarassment.
The Battle of Britain was the most important battle/outcome for this land since 1066.
Indisputable fact is that the Royal Navy played a VERY minimal part (a 'bit' player, an 'extra', an 'also ran').

The R.A.F. & it's environs were what made the difference - any other opinion is pure bunk.[/quote]

[Spinnaker]

Hi Jim,

You apparently know some background information on the historians who have put forward these ideas. In support of your comments below, could you please share this information with us?

]...when you have a failed and very average historian who thinks he is somebody and wants to prove that he can chew gum and f..t at the same time....[/[/i]quote]

[Cardinal]

Okay folks, let's make sure that we remember to keep this lively debate on history impersonal and focused on the issues - I don't believe anyone is deliberately trying to malign anyone's profession here so perhaps it should not be taken in that light .

Vigorous debate and discussion is the lifeblood of any forum and it's good to see that you are all actively participating in what can be a controversial topic .

[jim]

The calculation at the time was 10/1 the best they achieved on one day only during the battle was 2/1 the average over the battle was about 1/1.8 in favour of the RAF. And yes thanks to Dowding it was indeed over before it began.[ ]

[jim]

Its also worth remembering that that Germany was only fighting on one front at the time. I remember my grandfather telling me about his time in the Home guard. He said that they had 3 rifles one worn out Bren gun and 4 shotguns. There were 35 men in his mob!!! However joy of joys, just before Christmas 1940 they all got a 303 rifle each. The bullets came 2 weeks later!