[david cotton]

Originally Posted by djjeffhall

David,
Perhaps, and again, you made some good points.

However, I still think that logistics would have prevented Germany from getting further in North Africa than they did. (Or at least getting further in any meanful way. Rommel got where he was but couldn't hold it and manuever do to a lack of fuel, parts, etc. You have to have enough of an army to hold x point. Not just get one detrermined squad to x+.)

They never had the resources to project their navy (And therefore carry their army.) overseas. They would have needed the middle east oil to fuel their army over to the middle east to take it. A conundrum I don't think they could have overcome. (Kind of similiar ro the railways in Russia.)

Rommel only had a small German force in North Africa, (compared to the force went into Russia) and his supplies were being hit from Malta. With the resourses not going to Russia, I think the supplies would of been enougth. The taking of Malta could of been given a high priority, to concede Malta to the Allies was one of the big German mistakes of the war.

[djjeffhall]

David,
Hey there.

Right, and then we dive into more and more what-if's. Could Germany have held Malta and would the allies have had enough resources to take it the U.K. had fallen? Would the U.S. have stood back and allowed that to happen? Would FDR have acted if the Germans had landed in the U.K.? If the Germans had spent their landing forces in the U.K., would they then had enough resources to go into the Middle East/North Africa? (Much less Russia.)

I think it all come down to logistics, the unsexiest of matters when it comes to war. The Germans had the best army, but the worst logistical issues. They were not able to project their armed forces into the areas where they could have made a permanent difference. (Or at least project it with the forces to make that difference.)

[Captain Eddie]

Very interesting "what if's. dc and djjeffhall. I especially appreciate the respectful back and forth!

[jim]

Fighter Command , had it been decimated, would not have been able to prevent German Aircraft marauding over England. More U boats could of isolated the supplies to England.[/font]


Without supplies, the North Africa Campaign would have been lost. Remember, England actually invaded Iran during the war, to secure the oil fields. With North Africa lost, Germany would have had those Iranian oil fields.


Isolated and without supplies, England would of struck a deal or been invaded. I think we would of struck a deal to secure the remains of the British Empire.

1940 my favourite subject,
Interesting to look at what ifs, had fighter command failed, the road was open or should I say the channel. The plans had been drawn up and the German army was ready. Firstly we must consider what the Germans had in the way of tools for the job. The dash across the Low countries to the channel cost them about 60.000 casualties. They did however gain the equipment of twelve English divisions.

The luftwaffe was the only part of the German colossus that suffered any real losses in the campaign. However these were being very quickly made up from the reserve.
The German kriegsmarine were in a much more difficult situation. Despite the unfortunate loss of the carrier Glorious her Majesty's navy had managed to inflict serious damage and more importantly had hit the German navies confidence badly.

So we can imagine the situation at German HQ, Do we go for an invasion. Information is everything and the Germans had plenty of it. Their spies had toured the length and breadth of England before the conflict and a full dossier on all the English forces including accurate estimates of the fighter commands forces. However what they did not know was what the RAFs losses were in the Battle for France. Fortunately as happens in war the Luftwaffe grossly over estimated the RAFs losses and thought that a short sharp series of attacks would be enough to finish the RAF. Why would they think anything other than that, after all they had driven back all the allied airforces during the battle and that included the French air force, numerically superior to that of Germany plus the British.
The Luftwaffe having provided the figures for Hitler and his generals could hardly say otherwise when asked if they could do the job.
The theory at the time was to finish the RAF and then turn everything over to covering the invasion.
The dive bomber groups ground crews had practised fast turn arounds in order to keep a "cab rank" type of air cover for the initial phase of the operation (10 minutes) and claimed they could sink any ships coming within a hundred miles of the invasion site.
The German navy was very cool about the whole thing and showed no enthusiasm for the task. this is where the defeats in the Norway campaign came home to roost ( it was the thought of the power of the Royal navy rather than the fact of it that had them scared ).. Goering boasted that the German Navy could go and play in the fjords now the Luftwaffe had made them safe and he would make sure the landings went unopposed. ( he may well have correct, we shall never know). He is also qouted as saying to the Generals, just get me one airfield in England and I will supply all you need.

The amount of equipment available at and around the French ports by early September was staggering. however getting them across that little strip of water was also a staggering proposition.
The German organizational skills came to the fore and the Ships, boats etc were commandeered without delay.(but held back from the ports).

The two pronged attack on Britain had been roughly planned a year before and was quickly brought up to date and fleshed out.

Now it was down to the Luftwaffe , and the rest is history.

As to Malta, if Britain fell how would Malta survive without support. Malta was nearly lost with the best Britain could put together to hold it.
Its purpose was to be the base to attack resupply lines of the Axis forces. With the home island of Britain in support it would have fallen without a shot being fired. Starvation would have seen to that.
Then we must consider the fact that the Italian forces would then have the support of the Luftwaffe and again as has been proved the British fleet would have been lucky to survive at all.
Thus would have ended the desert campaign. Thus would Germany have its oil and the Suez canal.

As to America intervening at that time, how could they where would they be based for any attempt at retaking anything once Britain had fallen(and why would they want to).
Also we must remember that America had at that time written off Britains chances of survival although they did their very best to get to Britain as much equipment as possible (including 250,000 "Tommie guns")!

So lets review the evidence, Britain has lost most of its heavy tanks and artillery in France. Even light arms were left on the beaches of Dunkirk.
The Royal Navy was spread thinly around the globe and only the home fleet to call on.
The Luftwaffe had reported the RAF was severely depleted.
Britain stood alone and had lost its European Allies.
U boats had started their campaign and was set to have its numbers greatly increased.

Just that little strip of water to cross!!!!!

Had the Luftwaffe succeeded would Britain have capitulated? Interesting question, my personal opinion is that the government would have split and military rule would have been imposed. Remember some of the aristocracy wanted a pact with Germany. I will not name names as their offspring are still alive and the word traitor has been used since to describe them.
There is no doubt that the outcome would have been bloody and a huge loss of life would have resulted.
The attitude of the common man at that time was absolutely no surrender whatever the cost.
I dread to think of the consequences of the Home guard coming up against trained German soldiers.

I have tried to keep this short and not fill the page with statistics ( nothing worse than reams of statistics).
However the outcome was as seen and I can sit here and right this tome in English.

How stupid is war, tonight I spent a happy hour on the phone talking to my German friend. He is coming over for Duxford along with another German friend of mine. We shall sit together on the grass at Duxford, drink some beer and have a great time watching those planes.

Jaw Jaw is better than war war. who said that?

[swoop]

Crossed the English Channel on a few out dated ferries and it was no picnic. There are many good points in each and every argument. logistically it could have been a disaster for the Germans. Sorta 'Argie Bargie' (not too well thought out)you might say.
.

[MoMo]

Jaw Jaw is better than war war, who said that?

George Lukas, I think!

( maybe Lloyd George )

[Gort]

Britain would have dug in like an Alabama tic and kicked Nazi butt. Hitler's jauggernaut didn’t stand a chance against British spirit, Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine combined.

[Aircrafty]

Originally Posted by Gort

Britain would have dug in like an Alabama tic and kicked Nazi butt. Hitler's jauggernaut didn’t stand a chance against British spirit, Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine combined.

"Dug in like an Alabama tic", Gort, are you also a "Predator" fan