[Epapazian]

Originally Posted by jim

Would it be better to say that Japanese aviation pre WW2 was very primitive and unsophisticated so seeing conflict looming they grabbed at what ever western technology they could in order to save time on development ?

That was certainly true in the 1920s and even until the mid 1930s. However during the second Sino-Japanese War, starting in 1937, the Japanese had to contend with top quality Russian planes of that era manned by Chinese pilots and Russian "volunteers" as well as numerous American types. As both sides escalated their efforts and the Japanese eventually became embroiled directly with the Soviets in what amounted to all out warfare in Mongolia , the Japanese developed what were later dubbed their "Claude" and "Nate" fighters, which took the measure of the Soviet 1-15s, 1-153s and American "Hawks" ( P-36s ). The Japanese also developed their "Kate" and "Val" attack bombers as well as three excellent medium bombers- "Sally", "Nell" and "Betty"- before they fought against the Western powers in 1941. In only a few years they came up with an impressive assortment of other types , including a whole family of Army attack bombers and long range seaplanes like the "Jack" and "Mavis". I know I am leaving out some others. Finally, they brought their "Zero" and "Oscar" fighters out in time for their attack on Pearl Harbor and the subsequent sweep through SE Asia. The whole process was quite well organized and took Western observers, who tended to ridicule the Japanese as low tech copiers, by surprise after December 7, 1941. Japan's poor planning for a drawn-out war with America, coupled with endless bickering between its army and navy, and finally, its miniscule industrial base, compared to the U.S., is what really spelled defeat for its air army and navy aviators.

[jim]

Originally Posted by Epapazian

. Japan's poor planning for a drawn-out war with America, coupled with endless bickering between its army and navy, and finally, its miniscule industrial base, compared to the U.S., is what really spelled defeat for its air army and navy aviators.

They expected the US to fold and negotiate, they should have done their homework.

They sure as hell got that one wrong.

[Aircrafty]

Originally Posted by VMF115

Their entire aircraft industry relied on western technology to build aircraft that could keep pace with our aircraft,
And could not survive with out it.

The US and the soviet union already had successful aircraft manufactures and would have figured out the swept wing design in time. The Japanese in a rush to update their aircraft used technology from the west, After they bomb Peril Harbor that door was closed to them. Their only hope was help form Nazi Germany that ended up being to late to make a difference. Now they did do ok with what they had on hand, have to give them credit for that. But I stand by the fact that mostly all of imperial Japan aircraft where based on western aeronautical aviation that they integrated as their own, with out the west influence the imperial Japanese empire would have had inadequate airpower.

As I said earlier, most countries copy technology from other countries, including the US. The fact is that the Japanese made some of the best aircraft in WWII and early in the Pacific war their pilots were better trained and more experienced than the Americans. The Japanese "long Lance" torpedo was also one of the best designs of WWII.

[Nimrod48]

Originally Posted by jim

I would put forward the Hawker company even though it no longer exists.

Somehow Hawker always came up with the goods when it was needed.
It could be a long list, but these are worth a mention to prove my point, Hind, Hurricane, Fury, Hunter, Harrier.

Hey nobody have an opinion on Hawker, would somebody like to fly the flag for the Brits.
We were the best at aviation, sadly its all past tense now.

I think your choice of Hawker is spot on Jim the Hurricane was just the type of fighter we needed in 1940 easy to assemble, quick & cheap to repair & a very stable gun platform for green pilots, the Hunter was /is respected the world over for being a real pilots aircraft & is just the type of machine I think of as indicative of the British aircraft industry in the 1950s.
Of course we all know about the Harrier which I would hold up as a classic example of British engineering & ingenuity, sad to think that after the pollys decimated the aircraft industry over here most of the best brains whth in it had to go stateside to ply their trade.

[jim]

Originally Posted by Nimrod48

I think your choice of Hawker is spot on Jim the Hurricane was just the type of fighter we needed in 1940 easy to assemble, quick & cheap to repair & a very stable gun platform for green pilots, the Hunter was /is respected the world over for being a real pilots aircraft & is just the type of machine I think of as indicative of the British aircraft industry in the 1950s.
Of course we all know about the Harrier which I would hold up as a classic example of British engineering & ingenuity, sad to think that after the pollys decimated the aircraft industry over here most of the best brains whth in it had to go stateside to ply their trade.

Jetfan could no doubt post a great deal on this subject as he has first had knowledge.

If only we had a little more money just think what we could have done with the Harrier. However it must be said that our American cousins did a great job with it.

[Steve1971]

I would say the Grumman Iron Works followed by Boeing and then North American. Three of the best there is or was at the time.

[skysurfer808]

As far as aircraft manufacturers go Grumman has a strong case for the Navy, but Douglas ought to get honerable mention for it contribution to both Army and Navy. Who else made the SBD, A-1, A-3, A-4 for the Navy as well as the A-20, A-26, C-47, C-54, and C-124 for the Army and later Air Force. No they didn't make Strategic Bombers a La Boeing, but they certainly had a strong production run. I'm also surprised nobody mentioned McDonnel and later McDonnel Douglas, for the F-4 and F-15, two of the best fighters of all time, not to mention the F/A-18, which of course is now a Boeing Product. Lockheed Martin is a strong contender for all its products, from P-38 to the Raptor through the F-35, and the Blackbird is a masterful piece of engineering technology. And lookk at the C-5. For sheer innovation they are tough to beat. Republic also deserves honerable mention, from the P-47 through F-105 and A-10, they've made some of the toughest aircraft around.

I would have to say winner would be Lockheed Martin for sheer aviation innovation and variety of platforms, plus the fact that they will take over the fighter business over the next century. Boeing is a close second with its strong military product line stretching all the way back to WW-2, including the Super Hornet, and the C-17, which are now two of the most important new aircraft entering the inventory, as each are the only new airplanes in their respective categories. Also the B-52 ought to be mentioned for the role it has played keeping the peace, and continuing to serve as a deterrent. Third would be Northrop Grumman, which has combined the expertise of its two parent companies, and will likely be a strong player in the UAV market. North American would make the list were it still around, the P-51 really did help change WW-2, but it fizzled out as an aircraft manufacturer after being renamed Rockwell, and rolling out the B-1, which will likely be retired before the B-52.

Skysurfer8

[FormerViperDriver]

Originally Posted by skysurfer808

As far as aircraft manufacturers go Grumman has a strong case for the Navy, but Douglas ought to get honerable mention for it contribution to both Army and Navy. Who else made the SBD, A-1, A-3, A-4 for the Navy as well as the A-20, A-26, C-47, C-54, and C-124 for the Army and later Air Force. No they didn't make Strategic Bombers a La Boeing, but they certainly had a strong production run. I'm also surprised nobody mentioned McDonnel and later McDonnel Douglas, for the F-4 and F-15, two of the best fighters of all time, not to mention the F/A-18, which of course is now a Boeing Product. Lockheed Martin is a strong contender for all its products, from P-38 to the Raptor through the F-35, and the Blackbird is a masterful piece of engineering technology. And lookk at the C-5. For sheer innovation they are tough to beat. Republic also deserves honerable mention, from the P-47 through F-105 and A-10, they've made some of the toughest aircraft around.

I would have to say winner would be Lockheed Martin for sheer aviation innovation and variety of platforms, plus the fact that they will take over the fighter business over the next century. Boeing is a close second with its strong military product line stretching all the way back to WW-2, including the Super Hornet, and the C-17, which are now two of the most important new aircraft entering the inventory, as each are the only new airplanes in their respective categories. Also the B-52 ought to be mentioned for the role it has played keeping the peace, and continuing to serve as a deterrent. Third would be Northrop Grumman, which has combined the expertise of its two parent companies, and will likely be a strong player in the UAV market. North American would make the list were it still around, the P-51 really did help change WW-2, but it fizzled out as an aircraft manufacturer after being renamed Rockwell, and rolling out the B-1, which will likely be retired before the B-52.

Skysurfer8

Don't forget for Lockheed: P-80, T-33, F-104, U-2, F-117, C-141, C-130, S-3, P-2. P-3, Constellation, and so on, and so on. To me they are the hands-down winners becuase of the combination of their willingness to push the technological envelope and the sheer breadth ot their product range both civil and military (granted, more the latter). And don't forget: these were all true Lockheed products, unlike let's say the F-18 which really was a McDonnell-Douglas product (itself derived from a Northrop design, the YF-17). That's also why I don't list the F-16 under Lockheed, even though they now produce it, because it's really General Dynamics' baby.

FVD