[Epapazian]

Originally Posted by VMF115

The Japanese mostly copied western designs, they where efficient but they where not thier own, in fact also the technology they had at the beginning of the war was also the same technology they had when they surrendered. Sure they had a few unique designs but they came two late to do help with their war effort.
Basically they had no idea that the war would last that long and we would sue for peace.

It is clear that the Japanese leaders bungled their war strategy very badly, especially as to our determination to fight them to a finish. They also mismanaged their aircraft development plans. However the notion that most of their designs were knock-offs of western models doesn't ring true. In my post I listed a number of well known Japanese planes. I could have added others like their "Nick", "George", "Val", "Emily", "Claude", "Nate", etc. Not one of these were copies of British or American designs. It is true that the Japanese examined "Western" and German planes such as our P-35 and the BF-109 very closely, so they could learn from them. As the war went badly for the Axis powers, Japan obtained the plans for Germany's ME-262 and ME-163 and they eventually developed their own versions of these planes, with significant modifications. But that's about it, and these planes were never produced in meaningful numbers, nor were they used in combat.

[VMF115]

Originally Posted by Epapazian

It is clear that the Japanese leaders bungled their war strategy very badly, especially as to our determination to fight them to a finish. They also mismanaged their aircraft development plans. However the notion that most of their designs were knock-offs of western models doesn't ring true. In my post I listed a number of well known Japanese planes. I could have added others like their "Nick", "George", "Val", "Emily", "Claude", "Nate", etc. Not one of these were copies of British or American designs. It is true that the Japanese examined "Western" and German planes such as our P-35 and the BF-109 very closely, so they could learn from them. As the war went badly for the Axis powers, Japan obtained the plans for Germany's ME-262 and ME-163 and they eventually developed their own versions of these planes, with significant modifications. But that's about it, and these planes were never produced in meaningful numbers, nor were they used in combat.

True but most of the underlying technology was copied from the west and not developed on their own.
They where ingénues in how they used the west technology in production of their aviation industry, but Just to clear things up I am not talking about how there aircraft closely resembled ours but the technology they used, it was copied.

[timbo]

Originally Posted by VMF115

True but most of the underlying technology was copied from the west and not developed on their own.
They where ingénues in how they used the west technology in production of their aviation industry, but Just to clear things up I am not talking about how there aircraft closely resembled ours but the technology they used, it was copied.

Such as??

[jim]

Hmm, well I seem to remember (not that I was about in those days I hasten to add) a delegation from Japan toured the UK in about 1937 as the guests of the British government. They were taken to some RAF bases and I think a couple of aircraft factories.

[timbo]

But that's hardly proof that they were using copied technology. I'm sure those sort of tours happened in all countries, and I'm sure they only saw a selective sample, with the most sensitive stuff well hidden from view.

[VMF115]

What I am saying is that the imperial Japanese did use western technology to improve their fighter aircraft before the war, I remember reading and seeing how the Japanese reversed engineered a Dc-3, and the technology from that operation help the Imperial Japanese aviation industry to modernize. There is another account that before the war the Japanese approached Boeing in helping them make a long range bomber. It never got off the ground, thank god


I am not saying Japan seen an American Fighter aircraft and tried to copy it, I am not. I am saying that the Japanese relied heavily on western aeronautical technology to help them develop fighters and bombers that could compete with western aircraft designs.
and they also made improvement where they thought they might be useful.
The Imperial Japanese where not expecting to fight a long drawn out battle with the west and was hoping to win the war in a short amount of time.

[Aircrafty]

Most countries are into copied technology, for example the US copied the German swept wing jet designs of WWII. Btw, I cant see that the Mig 25 looks much like the Avro Arrow.

I don't have a favourite aircraft manufacturer, but reckon Grumman has built some of the sexiest looking

[VMF115]

Originally Posted by Aircrafty

Most countries are into copied technology, for example the US copied the German swept wing jet designs of WWII. Btw, I cant see that the Mig 25 looks much like the Avro Arrow.

I don't have a favourite aircraft manufacturer, but reckon Grumman has built some of the sexiest looking

Their entire aircraft industry relied on western technology to build aircraft that could keep pace with our aircraft,
And could not survive with out it.

The US and the soviet union already had successful aircraft manufactures and would have figured out the swept wing design in time. The Japanese in a rush to update their aircraft used technology from the west, After they bomb Peril Harbor that door was closed to them. Their only hope was help form Nazi Germany that ended up being to late to make a difference. Now they did do ok with what they had on hand, have to give them credit for that. But I stand by the fact that mostly all of imperial Japan aircraft where based on western aeronautical aviation that they integrated as their own, with out the west influence the imperial Japanese empire would have had inadequate airpower.

In their negotiations to purchase aircraft, the Japanese managed to acquire important technical information. In 1937, the Japanese were planning to acquire a Boeing bomber which the United States army forbade the sale of for a one-year period. Boeing offered to sell them a "similar model." Boeing advised the Japanese that "they would be able to design and build a similar type of bombing plane, either independently or in conjunction with Japanese engineers and would manufacture a certain specified number per year, or make one model plane selling the manufacturing rights for the style so designed. . . ."54



On June 13, 1938, Secretary of State Cordell Hull imposed a moral embargo on the shipment of airplanes and aircraft parts to any nation using them to bomb civilians. On October 28, Fairchild Aviation invited Okura's Vice Admiral Maehara and his entourage to visit a factory at Farmingdale, Long Island, which was operated by Ranger Engineering Company. Maehara would be shown how Ranger manufactured engines for the Fairchild "24" and the new trainer which was being developed for the United States. Earlier, Ranger had provided the Japanese with complete technical information on the trainer. The Japanese were aware that most companies in the aircraft industry were hesitant to accept their orders, fearing negative publicity and potential labor difficulties because the American Federation of Labor and the Congress of Industrial Organizations both opposed shipment of these materials to Japan. If American companies accepted orders, "stringent conditions are imposed."55


Some aircraft parts manufacturers cooperated with the Japanese and offered ways around the embargo. Bethlehem Steel Export Corporation accepted orders on the basis of part numbers with no reference to the fact they were airplane parts. The American Hammered Piston Ring Company, which could not conceal the fact the parts were for aircraft, accepted orders made directly through its export manager. Only part numbers were ordered and all other specifications were provided in a separate confidential letter. The Aluminum Company of America refused to accept orders, but it sold the dies and shipped them to another factory where the parts could be produced. Canton Prop Forgings & Manufacturing Company shipped to the Japanese if they ordered part numbers and Thompson Products, Inc. shipped valve forgings utilizing the same process. After the president's embargo of military equipment and parts, which became effective on July 5, 1940, Douglas Aircraft Company offered to deliver ordered parts to the Mitsui office with the suggestion that the Japanese label them as automotive parts.56

Three companies, Ohio Seamless Tube Company, Air Associated, and Dzus Fasteners Company, agreed to continue production and shipment without reservation. Ironically, Dzus had refused to expand to meet the needs of the military build-up in the United States and it would not license patents to another manufacturer. Some companies, concerned with the presence of U.S. inspectors while U.S. parts were being fabricated, would not produce Japanese parts during inspection. As the U.S. build-up increased, U.S. parts increasingly received the top priority.57


In early 1940, the Japanese were able to acquire information concerning he Boeing 307 Stratoliner. Lieutenant Y. Terai of the Japanese navy was invited to the Boeing factory in Seattle, where he was shown blueprints, diagrams, and other critical information concerning the plane. However, he was not allowed to see the plane because it was housed in the same hanger with the Flying Fortress B-17 bomber. On the way to the airport, he saw the Flying Fortresses engaged in test flights and observed some new features incorporated in the machine-gun housing. According to Kilgore, the features of the Stratoliner and the B-17 were combined in the B-29, which became a key weapon in the war against Japan.58


The Kilgore Committee's exposure of Japanese-American business relationships, which led to strategic technical information flowing to Japan, revealed some significant dynamics. It showed that a Senate committee could work closely with an executive agency to expose prewar economic relationships that worked to the detriment of the United States. In fact, the committee and the Justice Department's Board of Economic Warfare cooperated fully, and the possibility that information gleaned through Justice Department investigations might get to Kilgore struck fear in the hearts of business executives who did not want their questionable activities exposed.
http://www.wvculture.org/HiStory/jou...h/wvh55-6.html

[Epapazian]

When it comes to technology everybody steals, borrows or adapts from everybody. For example, every military expert lauds Russia's expertise in designing tanks. But didn't they adapt the Christie chassis to come up with their "fast tanks" - the BTR series of the 1930s- and what about the famous T-34? Didn't that use the same technology? Again taking the USSR as an example, how did their designers come up with the famous Mig-15? Simple. They used a modified British jet engine which Clement Atlee's socialist government allowed them to acquire plus Germany's swept-back wing concept and suddenly they turned out an outstanding jet fighter. The Germans weren't above copying also. Their Panther tank certainly was a "response" to the T-34 whose sloped armor, wider tracks and road wheels were adapted into one of WW War II's best tanks. Sure, the Japanese used whatever technological help they could find, but they weren't the only ones.

[jim]

Would it be better to say that Japanese aviation pre WW2 was very primitive and unsophisticated so seeing conflict looming they grabbed at what ever western technology they could in order to save time on development ?