[bsmith13]

I am relieved. I am very familiar with Private Weber's outburst on the autobahn in "Band of Brothers".

Private Weber considered WWII to be the fault of the German people for allowing themselves to be deceived by Hitler. Weber was a conscript, and a graduate of Harvard. He detested the military (both sides!) and refused promotion though he was an outstanding trooper and an informal leader of the company. Private Weber was appalled by the destruction wrought by the war.

So when you wondered if the same type of criticism could be levelled at Bush, I took it a step further and took insult when none was meant. I'm a little touchy about it. This war is not popular. Speaking as a private citizen, I am dismayed about the whole process that lead us to this point. However, I become alarmed when I see people comparing Bush (who foolishly got us entangled in this) to Hitler (who was a nut). There are plenty of people in the States doing just that.

So I apologize again for misinterpreting your intent.

[Aircrafty]

It would be interesting to get a copy of Parachute Infantry: An American Paratrooper's Memoir of D-Day and the Fall of the Third Reich which Private Webster wrote, I believe it was used by Ambrose to flesh out his book - Band of Brothers.

I well remember my Grandfathers experiences in World War One and he soon discovered that you end up fighting more for your mates than your country, and I guess things haven't changed much.

[SKUNKY]

Where have all the young men gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the young men gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the young men gone?
Gone for soldiers every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?

Where have all the soldiers gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the soldiers gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the soldiers gone?
Gone to graveyards every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?

Where have all the graveyards gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the graveyards gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the graveyards gone?
Covered with flowers every one
When will we ever learn?
When will we ever learn?

from Where Have All the Flowers Gone? by Pete Seeger

My son-in-law is a Marine spending this Christmas in Iraq. For reasons I do not understand. He has a daughter he has yet to meet....I think of this old song quite frequently these days..

[MoMo]

Thanks Skunky,

Here's a poem which every young person should read. Wilfred Owen is the most well known of the English WW1 poets. He was killed a few days before the whole sorry mess ended.

MoMo :



Wilfred Owen

Dulce Et Decorum Est

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of disappointed shells that dropped behind.

GAS! Gas! Quick, boys!-- An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And floundering like a man in fire or lime.--
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori

[Captain Eddie]

I may catch H**l for this, but here goes....

The war in Iraq is obviously not going well at all, even though I do hold out hope (perhaps foolishly, but hope nonetheless), that it will turn out OK. So, it is very easy to critizise at this point. I think, however, that many overlook some of the very good reasons we went in there to begin with.

Sadam Hussein had been thumbing his nose at the many UN resolutions for some time. Bush, even if somewhat reluctantly, went to the UN to try to get some teeth behind the resolutions, with absolutely no luck in this whatsoever. Not a big suprise this, as the UN is the biggest toothless tiger their is. Sadam issued a book in reply full of apparent lies and evations. If he indeed did not have WMD's, he sure acted like he did. He thuarted UN inspectors at every turn.

Radical Muslims have every intention of causing death and destruction to Americans, among others, every chance they get. They will not stop until we stop them. I personally believe it is only a matter of time until we have a nuclear explosion her in the U.S.A. (I'm not talking they next year or so, but probably in the next 5 to 10 years anyway.)

In conclusion, I do feel going in and taking out Sadam was the correct thing to do. Knowing what all we know now, maybe not, but at the time, yes.

[Aircrafty]

Like most people I haven't said much about the Iraq problem as the US, Australia and other countries still have troops over there, and we need to support our soldiers whatever the cause.

There is no doubt that something should have been done about Saddam Hussein but I personally feel the coalition invasion was the wrong solution. And the Chairman of the weapons inspection team, an Australian called Richard Butler was also against it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Butler_(diplomat)

I do not know what other solution(s) those in power could have used. But to me an invasion of another country should always be the last resort as it always seems to make the invading army look like the bad guys even when their intentions are good.

Btw Captain Eddie, has that mouse of yours conquered that toad, or is that mouse the toad's take out meal, or have those ferals joined forces to conquer the human race There's that perception and reality thing again

[Captain Eddie]

Btw Captain Eddie, has that mouse of yours conquered that toad, or is that mouse the toad's take out meal, or have those ferals joined forces to conquer the human race There's that perception and reality thing again [/quote]

I found that picture in an online newspaper, the caption stated that, as their was a local flood in the area, the mouse was keeping high and dry on the frog (though perhaps it is a toad, I'll have to take a closer look).

[MoMo]

" HELL'S ANGELS "

I decided that I wasn't going to watch any T.V. this Christmas or New Year. Instead, I watched a couple of dozen movies which had been piling up on my desk, forlorn and unwatched because of work, life, etc.

Among this pile were several war movies which I hadn't viewed for some time, and one which I had never seen, despite its enduring status as the only fair rival to William Wellman's flyboy epic, " Wings", " selected as the first recipient of 'Best Picture' Oscar R. I recall seeing " Wings" some time in the 1970s at our local Film Theatre, but I had never seen " Hell's Angels" and was anxious to see what it was all about. After all, Howard Hughes had spent a fortune on it.

This movie began life as a Silent Movie in 1927 but had run into a problem: just as the film was being edited, " The Jazz Singer" had sent Hollywood into a flat spin by introducing the novel element of SOUND!

" Back to the drawing board! " ordered Hughes, convinced that his flying epic would stall if SOUND was not on the list of features prominantly displayed on the marquee.

SOUND was added, with many parts of the movie having to be reshot, and colour sequences, using two-strip colour stock were introduced or reshot using the novelty of colour. Also, some sequences were shot, very effectively I thought, using colour filters to give the impression of Night. All this at a time when shooting in sound was considered to be the epitome of sophistication!

Three years later, the movie was released.

The Movie? Well, if you allow some latitude for its place in the scheme of Hollywood history as well as a degree of latitude for its view of recent history, it is not a bad movie.

It's plot is quite simple: three friends at Oxford University ( two English and one German ) slowly slide towards the catastrophe of WW1. To disturb the equanimity of the friendship a complication is introduced in the form of a femme-fatale, Jean Harlow.

The three friends, Ben Lyon, James Hall and John Darrow all end up in the Flying Corps or the Zeppelin force. Ben and James start their flying careers defending London agaist the Zepp.s and consequently shoot down the Zepp. of their buddy, after he has been cast off by the Captain's order to cut the observer's gondola in order to escape the RFC. ( this device appeared in another form in the movie ' Zeppelin' when the German crew march forward to jump to their deaths in order to save the ship! )

O.K., forget the plot! It gets worse.

Instead, focus on the stunning scenes of aerial combat. The movie's publicity boasts that 133 stunt fliers were used to stage the combat scenes. Certainly, it is quite a sight to see about 40 Foker D7s lined up as Von Richthofen's Circus takes of in perfect harmony to patrol the skies over The Somme.

Thrill to the sight of Ben and James as disguised German pilots flying a captured Gotha bomber on a one-way mission to bomb the main German supply dump.

Thrill some more as dozens of SE5As rise like flies to join combat. The skies fill with machines spitting and clawing their way through the cloud to dart and spiral onto the tails of their respective opponents. Above it all, the eagle,Von Richthofen searches for his best opportunity to make a kill while the sparrow-hawks fight it out. He spots the Gotha making its bombing run, after surveying the bomb dump, and he dives down to the level of the mortals to join battle.

I will not bore you with the melodrama of the ending. As I said, forget the plot!

The battle with the Zepp. ( an earlier sequence ) is well staged and the model work is very good for the period.

You can pick this one up on ebay for about 67 cents. It is worth watching the swarms of biplanes which you could have bought, as war surplus, for about $200 each ( including holes and spare engine ) or less, at the time!

" Wings" ( 1927 ) is a true Silent Movie. It is a much better movie than " Hell's Angels". Indeed, it stands out there with " The Big Parade" as being one of the best War Movies EVER! But don't let comparisons put you off. These old movies are well worth watching. Especially if, like me, you spent part of your pre-acned youth building these planes of the Aces. These old movies have to be appreciated as something more than Hollywood's tribute to the pioneers of aerial combat. They stand alone as facsimiles of what it was like in the air over the Somme in 1916/17. Indeed, Bill Wellman, Director of
" Wings", served in the Escadrille Lafayette, so he knew what it was like!

Have any of you seen them? Any more information on " Wings" or " Hell's Angels"?

MoMo

[STARMAN 352ND]

I have seen Hells Angles and it was ok for that time period i think.
The dogfight scenes in the movie are my favorite i didn't really care to much for the plot.
JP

[bsmith13]

I like to watch both of those, but like you guys already said, not so much for the plot...