[MoMo]

Wow,

the posts are flooding in on this issue!

I have to say that I understand Sergey's feelings on this one.

It occurs to me that we all share a passion for studying the most apocalyptic event in recent human history. I have discerned also that, among members, there is a shared concern not to allow revisionist historians and commentators free-reign when it comes to rewriting history. The same concern encompasses all literature concerned with the war and should also, in my opinion, extend the concern to all popular forms of entertainment.

We should also I believe, also extend our standards of veracity to the web. Especially as the web represents the future.

As I said earlier in the thread, I point out what I believe are the flaws in movies when they deserve it. These can be simple flaws such as anachronisms ( for fiscal reasons ) or major distortions ( such as the focus on post-war German soldiers, sailors and airmen as being 'deluded' or really 'anti-nazi' deep down, in the 50s ).

Movies are a commercial enterprise. They are also a powerful, shaping political force. They not only represent a way of life which most people aspire to, they also influence the way in which impressionable youngsters tend to think.

In the 50s, when most of the best war movies were made, the American movie industry was 'encouraged' to portray Germans in a more positive light in order to assuage fears about them and also to let them be seen as potential allies in the stand-off with the Soviets.

Hitler predicted that this would be the case if Germany was defeated. Much comfort will it give him in hell!

At about the same time as Germans were being 'reformed', people in Hollywood, radio and TV who had been openly supportive towards the Russians before Pearl Harbour were being hounded by Hoover and Joe MacArthy.

It's strange how the pendulum swings back and forth.

All a matter of politics. That's why I took pains to point out the weaknesses in the script of " Das Boot ". German movie-makers do not wish to influence young Germans, so the only Nazis we see in " Das Boot" are leaders like Raeder or mechanistic idiots who have come up from the Hitler Jugend.

Thank goodness " Der Untergang" was able to avoid this pitfall by sticking to the truth, as related by survivors. I think that this is the truest and fairest representation of events and loyalties of the period ( except Speer! )

To round this off, remember why the war was fought. Remember that Hitler's war cost, in certain terms: 35 million lives, 50 years of misery for Eastern Europe, 50 years of nuclear paranoia, 50 years of ' colonial' wars for the third world and the wealth of 50 years pouring into the coffers of people who don't make better washing-machines!

Sometimes it's a good thing to remind everyone, let alone the German people,
that the German people elected the Nazis. They also swallowed the myth that they were ' chosen' by destiny to rule the befuddled masses who weren't Germans. They accepted the Nuremburg Laws. They planned and built the death camps. They showed little compassion or mercy to the vanquished. They also, in the end, allowed Hitler and the most extreme Nazis to take the rap for it all.

There is that scene in " Band of Brothers" when the endless lines of German captives are berated by one angry US paratrooper:

" How could you be so stupid? How could you be such mindless
slaves to one man? "

We are still waiting for a satisfactory answer.

If movies only reflect what we are, then we are a quixotic bunch indeed ; if they aspire to have some element of truth, then we must apply the constant.

MoMo

[MoMo]

Hi Guys,

'Flags of Our Fathers' has arrived on this side of the pond. I went out to see it tonight, dodging the drunks and merry-makers who were jostling for pavement space in Glasgow's cosmopolitan west-end.

Strange, the cinema manager had said that our little, local cinema was booked out yet it was strangely devoid of people. Of course, they had all been let off the leash earlier today and were now all propping up bars the length and breadth of the city, all thoughts of movies gone from their enfeebled minds.

PARTY TIME!

While they partied I watched the movie with my wife. This was a strange start because my wife never acommpanies me to war movies.

She had read a review of ' Flags...' earlier in the week and had suggested that we see it tonight to counter the Christmas Sledgehammer Effect. Naturally, I agreed.

I guess that most of you have seen the movie by this time, so I'm just going to stick to what I thought of it on first viewing.

I thought that this was one of the great war movies, and a fitting counterpart to ' S.P.Ryan '. With Spielberg as co-producer and Eastwood rising to the occasion, how can it miss?

I can understand some people levelling the criticism that the narrative structure is hard to follow because of the flashbacks, flashforwards and time jumping. I can understand why Eastwood cut the movie this way. He wanted to bust the hero myth, and what better way to do this than to destroy linear narrative cliches and disrupt audience expectations.

This he succeeded in doing. The film is the better for it. I knew the story, but most of the audience would not.

Having established early in the film that there was a mistaken belief that the marines who raised the flag over Suribachi were not all bona fide heroes, and that others were involved whose contribution went unrecognised, the movie dealt with some of the effects on those who were attributed the honour of 'hero'.

Next, I have to aknowledge that in this movie the CGI is awsome and almost perfect. The 'invasion fleet' was remarkably well done and Mount Suribachi's defences were superbly rendered by the graphics team. If 'The Dambusters' CGI is as good, we have nothing to fear.

It was a strange experience to see all those assualt ships, battleships and cruisers steaming in formation towards Iwojima. Like ghosts gliding along, reenacting a vital part of history which we've only seen in B&W combat/newsreel film up till now. I'm sure that more than a few vets were transported back to a world long gone.

The scene where the marines are cheering on the Corsairs speeding fast and low past the invasion fleet was amazing. It was reduced to a human scale when one cheering marine fell into the sea and could not be rescued because the fleet could not stop.

Similarly, when the Landing Craft went in all seemed perfectly on schedule and to plan. It was when the marines started to advance from the beach-line that the movie became personal again. We see the marines advance towards us, and then the shot reveals that hidden gun positions are opening, heavy artillery is swinging on to target, and all hell is about to break loose.

' Get low, guys!' I wanted to shout. Silly. But,I was so drawn into the movie that in all the battle scenes I wanted to shout, look away or duck.

The result of the carnage of the battle was not swept under the carpet. Terrible injuries were depicted quite graphically and the audience was not let off easy. In this movie we had to understand that war is terrible and that people die because of it.

The point is made that the real heroes are the ones who did not come home and that people create myths about heroes because they need heroes. Also, the point is made that the administration needs heroes too. It needs tangible proof that the servicemen are doing a great job. The photograph stands for the nation's youth which is all pulling together to get the job done. It is an inspiring, heroic, iconic image which says, without words, 'we did it!'

Acting was good. Music was sparse and in period. Used only in moments of relaxation for the marines and to set the scene ( Andrews Sisters lookalikes ) when selling war bonds.

The movie looked both epic and personal. It recreated the 1940s very well. It made you believe in the power and terror of the battle.

It also desentimentalised the story and reafirmed the truth that companies/soldiers fight for each other.

At the end, the father says that he is sorry that he did not speak to his son more. He was a bad father. In a way, his words sum up the experience of all us baby-boomers whose fathers would not tell us about the war. Who always seemed to keep a part of themselves locked away, inaccessible unless you knew and understood what it meant to be there, on the day, crouching with your mates/buddies/compatriots.

The son, hugging his dying father, says what we all want to say: you were the best father. No-one had a better father than I. I felt the tears well up at this point because it was simple to understand. Our fathers who faced the terror and the power of that war have gone or are going. They were heroes to us. They stopped the madness of totalitarianism and made a better world for us. Yet, they kept the secrets of their own fears and the horrors that they witnessed to themselves.

Change the epithet to : the real heroes are the ones who died and also those who protected us from the truth.

A very moving film. See it if you haven't yet.

I'll watch it again soon and add to these thoughts.

cheers,

MoMo

[MoMo]

Yes, it's that time of the year again. The time when all avid die-cast collectors look forward to one of their favourite movies ofall time :

" White Christmas "

Why is it that every year seems to make the story more rediculous?
The war scenes at the start are all lousy, the movie is too stagey, the jokes are all terrible, the acting is pathetic and the idea that anyone should be holding a torch for Rosemary Clooney is just plain preposterous!

We sit through it only so that we can hear the song at the end and dream of a white christmas while it rains outside due to global warming.

It just cracks me up to see all those ' WW2 vets' marching onto the set to declare that they will ' Follow the Old Man wherever he wants to go....' so that they can bail him out of bankruptcy.

All a product of Hollywood demonstrating its loyaly to the flag!

My advice : if you want to enjoy the sentiment of the song, record it and ditch the rest of the movie because its enough to make a strong man weep!

cheers,

MoMo

[Aircrafty]

Originally Posted by MoMo

There is that scene in " Band of Brothers" when the endless lines of German captives are berated by one angry US paratrooper:

" How could you be so stupid? How could you be such mindless
slaves to one man? "

MoMo

I wonder if that will ever be said about President Bush's regime

[MoMo]

Dear Aircrafty,

You're absolutly correct in your assumption that people are going to level criticism at the BUSH/blair ' partnership'.

I speak for this Brit :

Blair is an overwheening asshole who conned our nation into this war!
He did it to provide himself with a cloak of victory so that he could milk the US lecture circuit forever after in the afterglow of righteousness whch pervades today's politicians when they hazard our forces in pointless neo-colonial wars. He also did it because he is a stupid opportunist who uses his position to peddle his own brand of religious morality based on the false premis that he is right and everyone else is wrong.

We will have to wait till the Blair is dead before we get an honest film about his stupidities. The last government spokesman who dared to contradict his lame assertion that the Iraqis were preparing weapons of mass destruction ended up dead in the woods! " Suicide" and a quick burial.

Well, now he's dead in the water and all those Labour politicians who he stabbed in the back can dance on his political grave producing a scumbag versus scumbag scenario.

Bush? When will we see an honest movie about the Bush?

All those Americans with more than two braincells saw through Bush long before he came to power. Many more see through him now.

He started the ultimate capitalist war:

• Destroy a nation's infrastructure
• Tax the US public to pay for the weapons
• Rebuild the infrastructure in a half-assed fashion, remembering to charge double
• Tax the American public to pay for it
• Give all the contracts to your mates
• Impose an alien system of government on people who can hardly survive in the ruins that have been created
• Install a leadership which cannot endure
• Discount all the servicemen who have been killed
• Discount all the innocent Iraqis who have been killed

I'd write a scenario, but who would watch it?

Did these people learn nothing from the Vietnam tragedy? Why is it that the Bush Administration did not heed the opinion of the world or their own common sense? Everone I knew predicted, step for step, what would happen.

This is what happens when democracies get fat and lazy. Trying to control events by pushing buttons does not work. You have to talk, argue and compromise, not throw a tizzy fit and bomb the hell out of a country suffering from dictatorship every time you have a disagreement!

No, they couldn't make a movie about Bush and Blair because the only team who could play the parts are dead.

You would have to go back to 1936, find Margaret Dumont to play Blair and Cheetah the monkey ( from 'Tarzan') to play Bush.
The people ( us ) would have to be played by Groucho, Harpo and Chico.

Let us imagine a democracy that needs to be revitalised : ' Freedonia' which is ruled by a monkey called Cheatah, and another country, ' The YUK', which is ruled by a prima donna, Mags.

scene one

Cheatah : I'm all out of ideas. Freedonia must be fleeced to the last cent
for my new project to cover the world in banana republics. The
more bananas, the better for all of us!

Secretary : Mister Cheatah, Miss Mags is on the line.

Cheatah : I'm busy thinking. Tell her to call back!

Secretary : As you wish, sir.

( enter Groucho, Chico and Harpo )

Cheatah : Who are you guys?

Groucho : We're irrate citizens. We payed our taxes by mistake last year
and we want them back! ( aside to Chico ) Pssst! Look in
back of the breakfront! You too, Harpo!

Harpo : ' Honk, honk!'

Cheatah : Get out of here. Can't you see I'm thinking.

Groucho : Are you thinking of money?

Cheatah : Well, as a matter of fact, I am.

Groucho : Well, think of my bank account and think some in there!

Cheatah : I won't stand for this, I'll sue!

Chico : Hey, Boss, hows about dissa Sue? She your gal?

Groucho : Don't mind him ( pointing to Chico ) He only arrived in the
country yesterday.

Cheatah : How did he come?

Groucho : On a banana-boat!

Chico : Thats'a truth, Boss. I slipped in.

Harpo : ' Honk, honk!'

Cheatah : Can he cook, clean, sew, wash dishes?

Chico : Sure, Boss. I cana do anything.

Cheatah : O.K. you're hired. We need a new secretary of War.

Groucho : What about a job for me too?

Cheatah : There's an opening for General of all the Armies. Have you any
experience?

Groucho : I got lots of experience. I work fast!

Cheatah : At sea?

Groucho : Sure. But I can sing it in C minor if you'd like.

Cheatah : You're now Secretary of War. What is your advice?

Groucho : Invade Freedonia!

Cheatah : But we're in Freedonia. We're already here.

Groucho : I told you I work fast!

Harpo : ' Honk, honk!'

( the door bursts open and Mags strides in! )

Mags : Oh Cheatah, I couldn't wait any longer. My arms ache for you!

Cheatah : My Love! Why are you here?

Mags : I told you. My arms ache for you!

Groucho : Who is this vision of loveliness?

Mags : Who is this, this..... person?

Groucho : It's me. Don't you remember? That star-filled night on the
poop deck?

Mags : I've never seen you before in my life.

Groucho : Is that my fault? I was there, but where were you?
Philandering with him ( pointing at Cheatah ). Mother said,
'never trust a Republican'!

Cheatah : Have you seen this man before?

Mags : Never!

Groucho : Then why are you playing footsie with me?

Harpo : ' Honk, honk!'

Chico : ( to Groucho ) O.K. Boss. I've gotta all da loot. Let's get out of
here! ( spoon falls from Harpo's coat sleeve )

Groucho : I'm going! ( holds arm across face )

Mags : You were just using me! ( she swoons )

Cheatah : You mean, you love him?

Groucho : Say, does your face need all that hair or could I borrow some?

Cheatah : I've never been so insulted in my life!

Groucho : Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle!

Chico : He's your nephew, Boss?

Groucho : We like to keep it all in the family.

Mags : ( recovering ) I'm leaving!

Groucho : The doors thataway!

Chico : C'mon, Boss, the boys are waitin'!

Groucho : O.K. But before we go I'd just like to say one thing.

Chico : What?

Groucho : Give that monkey a banana!

Harpo : ' Honk, Honk!'

If it all wasn't tragic, it would be laughable!

MoMo

[bsmith13]

Originally Posted by Aircrafty

I wonder if that will ever be said about President Bush's regime

So, I gotta ask. Are you two comparing Bush to Hitler and the American People to the Germans of World War II? Everyone is entitled to their opinion. If you are, I politely disagree.

[MoMo]

Dear Bsmith13,

If you read the posting carefully, it should be obvious that I am not comparing Bush to Hitler. Niether was Aircrafty. Aircrafty pointed out the remark from a para about the lines of Germans being taken into captivity. The para vents his anger at them when he thinks of all the stupid waste of the war. At this point he is feeling raw and sickened.

The para in ' Band of Brothers' shouts at them for being idiots / ' peons' he says, and asks them how they could have been taken in by one man and become mindless fools. Aircrafty merely asked if people would say that about Bush one day.

I then vented MY spleen about Blair and Bush!

I would not compare the American people to WW2 Germans. That would be rediculous. I admire the American people and love their culture too.

I was not comparing Bush to Hitler. This would be unfair. Bush is just stupid, not evil.

I did, however, compare Blair to a Prima Donna and Bush to a monkey. Read the script.

HAPPY CHRISTMAS TO ALL OUR COMMUNITY.

AND ALL THE BEST FOR A HAPPY, PEACEFUL AND PROSPEROUS 2007

MoMo

[bsmith13]

I am relieved.

Merry Christmas to you.

[MoMo]

Thanks, Bsmith13,

I have a great deal of respect for the American people and also their institutions and our common democratic heritage.

It burns me up when I compare Bush to the likes of FDR, Lincoln or Kennedy. I don't think that the American people deserve to be lumbered with Bush.

Democracy, to work properly, must not be bought in the market place.

Thank God that you guys have a film industry that can produce movies which criticise your own society's values and also challenge the political mind sets which prevail. Very few countries have this.

MoMo

[Aircrafty]

Originally Posted by bsmith13

So, I gotta ask. Are you two comparing Bush to Hitler and the American People to the Germans of World War II? Everyone is entitled to their opinion. If you are, I politely disagree.

No, I'm merely saying that most wars turn out to be pointless when we look back on them in hindsight which is why we should be very careful before we enter one. For example few people recall that WWI (The Great War) started because a prince and his wife were killed by a terrorist, was WWI really worth all the subsequent deaths. If you want to cut out a cancer you use a scalpel, not a machete.