[jim]

$29.99 for 1/72Memphis Belle!!!!!! Just over £15. You lucky devil! Or is it a wind up?

Originally Posted by SKUNKY

Hey all fellow 12 O'Clock Highofiles, coincidentally I just read in my latest copy of Flight Journal that there's a new book out called The 12 O'Clock High Logbook:The Unofficial History of the Novel, Motion Picture and TV Series..It's 422 pages..At $29.99 it ain't cheap (heck, that's exactly what I paid for my 1/72nd Corgi Memphis Belle) but you can get it a lot cheaper thru Amazon.com....This one is definitely headed for my library.

[skysurfer808]

Originally Posted by MoMo

re " Das Boot",

I forgot to add that the only plot device which I thought was questionable was the one which cast the volunteer submariner from Mexico in the role of the token Nazi. All the other crew members were silent or openly hostile to Hitler ( manifest in their derision of the German/Mexican ) in a manner which sought to distance them from their political masters, thus maintaining the myth that the Kreigsmarine was anti-Nazi.

This fairy-tale was the only fly in the ointment as far as the movie was concerned.

MoMo

Hello MoMo,
I disagree with your assertion that the Kriegsmarine was anti Nazi. Certainly its high ranking officers were, as was Doernitz, but the majority rank and file Unterseebooten crews were sailors first. The U-boat arm took more casualties proportionatly than any fighting arm of the Second World War. They were quite successful until 1943, and fought on till the end against an Allied ASW effort that grew to immense proportions. What sustained the U-boat arm wasn't Nazi fanaticism, but loyalty to camrades, the glue that holds all military units together (ask how many Iraq Veteran GIs are Bush Supporters.) Certainly U-boat men benefitted under the Nazi System, with Doernitz providing special leave trains to whisk them home once they returned to port. Osprey put out a great volume on U-boats, and it had a great vignette of a U-boat returning to port late in the war, with the skipper asking if the Nazi's were still in charge. When the answer was yes, he turned his U-boat back out to sea. Of course U-boat POWs did murder those they suspected were spying for the allies, but how many of us would do the same under the same circumstances.

To me Das Boot is one of the finest WW2 films, as it gives the German perspective to the war, and provides a realistic tribute to the 28,000 plus German U-boat men resting at the bottom of the sea.

Skysurfer808

[MoMo]

Hello MoMo,
I disagree with your assertion that the Kriegsmarine was anti Nazi. Certainly its high ranking officers were, as was Doernitz, but the majority rank and file Unterseebooten crews were sailors first.

Dear Skysurfer808,

I think that you must have picked up what I said wrongly. I was not asserting that the kreigsmarine U-boatmen were anti-nazi or pro-nazi per se. I was making the point that in the film " Das Boot" there is only one character who is openly pro-nazi and he is identified as being Mexican born with German parents. Also, he said that he made his way to Germany to join up, answering the call made to German ex-patriots ( Bund ) to come home and fight for the fatherland or work for it.

The rest of the cast deride this character's politics and over-weening patriotism in the movie. I was making the point that in terms of the movie's politics, it let the German film-makers off the hook by characterising the rest of the crew members as critical of the Nazi leadership.

I understand the position which German film-makers have to adopt when they choose the war as a film subject. They have to be careful not to glorify any aspect of the Nazi's role in the fighting and, at the same time, also try to present an honest view of what happened.

I just find it hard to swallow that a branch of the armed services of Germany, into which people were conscriped, had only one crew-member who was openly Nazi, and who was also, conveniently, really a Mexican! The statistics do not allow for this scenario to occur.

Also, the character who was the reporter would have to have been a Nazi to have worked for the German Propaganda machine, and he doesn't make any of his views known.

This would not have been unusual in Nazi Germany because of the power of the Gestapo.

What I found unusual was the device of having many of the officers utter anti-Hitler gibes when they were drunk or bored. Nazi Germany was so locked-tight with regard to criticism of the leadership that it would have been highly unusual to hear jokes about Hitler except in the company of close, trusted friends, and certainly not in the presence of an avowed member of the Nazi party.

This characterisation of the crew being just ordinary blokes doing a hard job and having to put up with a nazi at the same time just ddoes not ring true!

As to the bravery of the U-boat crews, that is not in dispute. They had courage and fortitude in plenty.

What they lacked was a legitimate cause to fight for.

Compare this with the thousands of merchant marine sailors who died in the Battle of the Atlantic, together with the thousands of servicemen who also died. They had something worthwhile to fight for.

( See things from the other end of the stick by watching " The Cruel Sea" )

To recap, the film portrays the crew as anti-nazi, this gives the movie-makers an opportunity to concentrate on the drama and allows the audience to empathise with the crew members. If this had not been established early in the movie then we would have been rooting for the R.N. to depth-charge the lot of them as quickly as possible!

Hope this clears things up.

MoMo

[skysurfer808]

Just adding my two cents. No offense on your post.

As for the Cruel Sea, that too is one of my favorite WW2 films, and it is a great book too...the book delves much deeper into the personal lives of the Compass Rose's crew.

As for anti Nazi statements in the U-boat arm, they were the least Nazified of all German services. Naval forces tend to be more cosmopolitan than groundpounders, since they travel overseas more often and in peacetime especially, tend to interact more with foreign armed forces. A U-boat wardroom is hardly a place where the Gestapo would keep surveillance, though outspoken officers could get in trouble ashore. Doernitz was known to have allowed for "letting off steam" but he was committed to the Third Reich, and indeed did become its leader in its dying days.

Skysurfer808

[jim]

You started off a great bunch of posts with your thread Mo Mo. A trip down memory lane. As to the politics of the Kriegsmarine most of the info I have seen would have us believe that Nazism hardly reared its ugly head. Anyone overtly Nazi was often derided and ignored. I think this is true to a point, the German navy was probably the one service that held on to its traditions more than most. However we would be naive to believe that in 1939 there were no Nazis in the U boats, or in the surface fleet. Skys last post hits the nail on the head I think. Its always difficult to look back and cast judgement. I have many good friends in Germany and have openly discussed the Third Reich with them. ( I still cannot grasp why we fought 2 wars with such nice people). Before making any judgement you must always put your mindset back to that time and think as you would have done then not now. If your nation was on its knees, people starving, no selfrespect, Foreign nations busy asset stripping the place and along came someone who in few short years made your nation one of the strongest in the world where would your loyalty be? All people tend to turn a blind eye to the bad things in that situation. The Nazis were without doubt brilliant at propaganda and managed to fool most of the German people most of the time. Until it was to late. It is a warning to us all that national pride when abused and taken to extremes can result in an excuse for the most horrific acts of inhumanity. How would a German citizen aware of the concentration camps do anything about it.Once those b.....ds had control it was too late.

Cruel sea is near top of my list, good old stiff upper lip stuff.

Originally Posted by skysurfer808

Just adding my two cents. No offense on your post.

As for the Cruel Sea, that too is one of my favorite WW2 films, and it is a great book too...the book delves much deeper into the personal lives of the Compass Rose's crew.

As for anti Nazi statements in the U-boat arm, they were the least Nazified of all German services. Naval forces tend to be more cosmopolitan than groundpounders, since they travel overseas more often and in peacetime especially, tend to interact more with foreign armed forces. A U-boat wardroom is hardly a place where the Gestapo would keep surveillance, though outspoken officers could get in trouble ashore. Doernitz was known to have allowed for "letting off steam" but he was committed to the Third Reich, and indeed did become its leader in its dying days.

Skysurfer808

[jim]

I just remembered another war film . Anyone seen James Coburn in where the Iron Crosses grow. That was a strange film supposed to be from the German point of view. some of the battle scenes were not bad. Very much a "Hollywood " type film ,but it had its moments.

[Berkut76]

I remember when I was in college, the professor screened a German movie Stalingrad made in early-90s. Basically it showed a bunch of good natured and good hearted Germans becoming the victims of a conflict realizing too late that they were led by a madman. A lot of folks were emotional at the end, when the two main heroes succumbed to the cold of the harsh Russian winter.

You know what, I was the only one in audience who didn't care one bit. While I'm in awe of the professionalism of all branches of the Third Reich Military during the WWII, the basic truth for me is that they came to annihilate or at best enslave my ancestors. In short, I'm not going to shed one tear when I see a footage of German soldiers' bodies stacked sky high.

Regards,

Sergey

[SKUNKY]

Originally Posted by jim

. Anyone seen James Coburn in where the Iron Crosses grow.

Can't say that I have,jim. But I did see Where the Red Fern Grows..Cried myself to sleep for almost two weeks afterwards.

[mustangdriver]

I was the same way with Old Yeller. God I hate that movie.

[jim]

I can understand your feelings but in doing so I want to say that what puts us above the Nazis is simple humanity. German soldiers were not all B.....ds.Many had no choice but to serve and some did it at the point of a gun. Some even earnt the respect of their enemies. Sadly the truth is that some also believed in all that Nazi crap and willingly carried out their orders to murder.

Originally Posted by Berkut76

I remember when I was in college, the professor screened a German movie Stalingrad made in early-90s. Basically it showed a bunch of good natured and good hearted Germans becoming the victims of a conflict realizing too late that they were led by a madman. A lot of folks were emotional at the end, when the two main heroes succumbed to the cold of the harsh Russian winter.

You know what, I was the only one in audience who didn't care one bit. While I'm in awe of the professionalism of all branches of the Third Reich Military during the WWII, the basic truth for me is that they came to annihilate or at best enslave my ancestors. In shirt, I'm not going to shed one tear when I see a footage of German soldiers' bodies stacked sky high.

Regards,

Sergey