[Copland]

Go to www.boards.historychannel.com, then click on "wars." Some interesting topics, including an engaging conversation about Michael Wittman's exploits. Exaggerated?

[wmosner]

I am having no luck with that address, any chance you entered it wrong?

[Hornchurch]

Originally Posted by Copland

.......... including an engaging conversation about

Michael Wittman's exploits. Exaggerated?

The Germans needed all the favourable propaganda they could get during the actual last year of their ' 1,000 Year Reich '.

The misery & deprivations of their home front situation, coupled with their inability to stop/kerb the incessant bombing of their homeland by the U.S.A.A.F (8th & 15th A.F's) & the R.A.F's Bomber Command,
meant that ANY good news (that deflected their true situation) that would help boost morale (& stiffen resolve) was worth highlighting/reporting.

Exaggerated - maybe ?

He remains the most famous tank ace, despite others who acheived more
during their service......
i.e. 'Hans Bolter (Ost-front), Otto Carius
.......... & arguably the most amazing of them all (in numerous repeated instances that often defy belief)......... Ernst Barkmann.

Events at Villers-Bocage (Like Barkmann's legendary solo clash vs overwhelming numbers of Shermans/Artillery Barrages & repeated P.47 attacks, whilst in command of Mk.V Panther (No 424) - made hair-raising reading & heartened the Germans of their beliefs of superiority.

Yet there are countless more men (particularly on the Eastern Front) who were taking on impossible odds on a daily basis & winning........ eventually sucumbing to sheer weight in numbers as the inevitable happened.

The lucky ones (like Barkmann survived).

(P.S. his Battle of the Bulge skill & sheer daring defy belief ).

[Berkut76]

Yet there are countless more men (particularly on the Eastern Front) who were taking on impossible odds on a daily basis & winning........ eventually succumbing to sheer weight in numbers as the inevitable happened.

I've studied the history of the Eastern Front quite a lot for obvious reasons, and I would go on a limb to say that the popular theory, which has become a de facto axiom that the Germans lost in the East only because a numerical superiority on the part of the Soviets is downright RIDICULOUS

In 1941, the Soviets had massive numerical AND qualitative advantage over Axis forces in tanks, artillery, and, even mobility (yes, the Soviet regular infantry divisions circa June 21, 1941 had more trucks than German ones). Yet, the Germans were stopped only at the door step of Kremlin when the Soviets only had something like 150 light tanks (KV were in single digits while the T-34 barely numbered a couple of dozens) at their disposal. The Nazis couldn't close the deal so to speak, with everything in their favor.

In 1943, during the Battle of Kursk the Germans once again held an unbelievable qualitative edge over the Soviets as well as still being in control of the air. However, while the SS Panzer corps achieved its highest kill ratios of the war, the attacks on Northern flank and in the center failed miserably.

A little fact that a lot of people ignore is that Germans produced a lot of AT guns in 1943 and 1944. As a matter of fact, the production of Pak40 in 1944 EXCEEDED Soviet production of AT guns, which Red Army still needed due to T-34 inferiority to even Panzer IV to say nothing of Panther or Tiger.

It goes without saying that each war produces heroes on every side, but heroism is not a substitute for overall planning and execution, which the Soviets were able to pull time and time again against fanatical opposition from 1943 forward.

Although, while praising the skills of Teutonic Knights it's always worth remembering the guys on the winning side were no slouches either.

For the Soviets, I could name Lt. Lavrinenko who at the time of his death on December 18, 1941 had 52 confirmed tank kills shared between BT-7 and T-34. Or how about, Zinoviy Kolobanov who in one engagement on August 19th, 1941 destroyed 22 German tanks, while his three tank platoon brought the total to 43, stymieing German advance on Leningrad. However, in typical Soviet fashion Kolobanov wasn't awarded even the lowliest medal due to his GULAG past.

The Axis didn't lose the war simply because they were overwhelmed by numbers, but because slowly but surely Allies overall competence in all ranks and all the branches, and on all the fronts became at least equal to that of vaunted German prowess.

Sorry for the incoherent rant.

Regards,

Sergey

[panzercommander]

Originally Posted by Berkut76

popular theory, which has become a de facto axiom that the Germans lost in the East only because a numerical superiority on the part of the Soviets is downright RIDICULOUS

You are absolutely correct. The reason this myth is so pervasive is because as the war ended and the cold war began the west did not have access to the Soviet's version of things, only the Germans. I believe this is why the German armed forces of WW2, even today, are viewed as superhuman. In fact, I would dare to say that the German army has an equal or even greater mythical charm to it today than it did in 1939-1941.

The reasons for the German defeat in the Great Patriotic War are the same as the Soviet victory. Leadership, strategy, tactics, manpower, industry, supply, and perhaps most important... the cause.

[mkenny]

Originally Posted by Hornchurch

(Like Barkmann's legendary solo clash vs overwhelming numbers of Shermans/Artillery Barrages & repeated P.47 attacks, whilst in command of Mk.V Panther (No 424) - made hair-raising reading & heartened the Germans of their beliefs of superiority.

And yet there is not a single US source that mentions or describes this great feat. Nobody seemed to notice this setback.

[Hornchurch]

Originally Posted by mkenny

And yet there is not a single US source that mentions or describes this great feat. Nobody seemed to notice this setback.

Then try reading some books on subject before you doubt, or (aimlessly) pour scorn........

July 27th 1944

Try doing something elementary, like a search, I've given you the actual date as a starter !

Try 'Googling' Ernst Barkmann, even ?


Evidently, if it's NOT available.... as a Quote " single U.S. source" then any outside Historical event 'didn't happen', Eh ?

Many thanks for that "nugget of your wisdom"


Tsk, Tsk, really should move to the U.S. to keep-abreast of world events !!!!!!!!!!!!



B.T.W. most historians quote the overwhelming odds on the Eastern Front being the prime cause/as well as oil supply - tell them too.

[mkenny]

Originally Posted by Hornchurch

Then try reading some books on subject before you doubt, or (aimlessly) pour scorn........

I have read, extensively and in considerable depth. There are nothing but unconfirmed German claims and absolutely no evidence whatsover to verify any of the claims.

July 27th 1944

Try doing something elementary, like a search, I've given you the actual date as a starter !

See prevoius reply

Try 'Googling' Ernst Barkmann, even ?

Google eh? I prefer good old printed works.

Evidently, if it's NOT available.... as a Quote " single U.S. source" then any outside Historical event 'didn't happen', Eh ?

Many thanks for that "nugget of your wisdom


Tsk, Tsk, really should move to the U.S. to keep-abreast of world events

. Long on rhetoric and short on fact.

.Now is it possible you could give me a source, a single US or Allied source, a source anywhere that even MENTIONS this engagement.
For such a remarkable feat you would think someone would notice wouldn't you?
Or should we simply swallow every German claim as absolute gospel?
Should we also accept Feys claims for August 7th at Chenedolle. Try Google if you are curious.

[klussdog]

Guys, I remember reading about Barkmann's exploit in Normandy. The book was Armor Battles Of The Waffen SS by Fey (Stackpole Military Books), very good read.

Yes, I would agree that he's often in the shadows of Wittmann's fame but I do not think that any Tank Ace comes close to Wittmann's achievements. Read Tiger Ace - The Life Story Of Panzer Commander Michael Wittmann by Simpson

Someone was stating that German Armor achievements can't be substantiated, that's just hog wash!
The Germans had far superior armament, armor plating and optics in their tanks (Mark IV, Jagdpanzer, Stug, Panther, Jagdpanther, Tiger & King Tigers) This is not rumors this is the fact - Read Death Traps by Belton V Cooper. He states that the Sherman was a piece of junk and had a pee shooter for a gun. When the Russian first got their Lend Lease tanks they called the Sherman a Grave for Five Brothers. The Germans called it the Tommy Cooker; one hit and the thing burst into flames . As a matter of fact even the Cromwell was a better tank than the Sherman.

Not until the 17pdr was jammed into the Sherman by the Brits did it even stand a chance against a Panther or Tiger. As a matter of fact it's said that a Firefly was what did Wittmann in but there is still controversy to this It is said that a flight of Typhoons was engaging Wittmann's armor column at the time of Wittmann's demise. The column which Wittmann was in just started to engage over 100 Allied tanks (nothing that he was not used to after being stationed on the Eastern Front). The Allies called in Air Support and this was answered by a flight of Typhoons with Rockets. Take a look at the picture of Wittmann's tank, I do not think that a Firefly firing at the thickest armor of a Tiger could inflict that much carnage. Looks more like a rocket through the top armor plate setting off the ammo.
Anyways, sorry to go off subject. Here's a link to wikipedia.com and a copy of Barkmann's Normandy Exploits.

Enjoy the read...........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Barkmann

Normandy

The Das Reich division remained on the Eastern front until January 1944. Early in February, the division was ordered to France to refit and to form a part of Panzergruppe West, the armoured reserve for the expected allied invasion. Leaving its remaining armour behind for other divisions to use, the Das Reich was posted to the Bordeaux region. With the exception of several skirmishes with partisans, the refit was uneventful. Barkmann, along with the rest of the division's panzer regiment, was equipped with new model Panthers.
Operation Overlord, the expected allied invasion, was launched on 6 June1944. When the division was released for action by Führer headquarters, it was placed on high alert and remained in Southern France in case of secondary invasions there. When it became clear that the Normandy invasion was the major allied effort, the Division was ordered north to the front. The division's transit to the front was marked by heavy Jabo and partisan attacks. Barkmann and the panzer regiment were not involved with the massacre of Oradour-sur-Glane, perpetrated by a Panzergrenadier unit of the division.
The division finally reached the front in early July and was thrown into action against the American forces near St. Lô. Barkmann, in his Panther (Nr. 424) saw heavy fighting against American M4 Shermans and M5A1 Stuarts in the Bocage. The narrow sunken roads and impassable hedgerows of the bocage meant that the German could establish a deadly defensive line and that the American matériel advantage could not be exploited.
Barkmann, operating with his platoon or even as a lone panther, caused heavy casualties to the advancing Americans, destroying many tanks and armoured vehicles. On the morning of July 27, Barkmann found himself in his Panther cut off from the rest of his company. While attempting to reach his unit, he was stopped near the village of Le Lorey where he was told by German infantrymen that the Americans were closing in with a large armoured column. Barkmann positioned his Panther under a stand of oaks near the crossroads where the American tanks would have to pass.
As the column came into sight, Barkmann knocked out the two lead Shermans and a fuel tanker truck. Next he destroyed two Shermans which had attempted to bypass the burning tanker. The Americans called in fighter-bombers, which damaged Barkmann's Panther and wounded two of his crewmen. Barkmann's next victims were two Shermans that had used the noise of the fighter-bombers as cover to sneak up on the damaged Panther's flank. As Barkmann's crew repaired the Panther, two more Shermans were knocked out. Finally, before leaving, Barkmann destroyed one last Sherman.
During the engagement, which has come to be known as Barkmann's Corner, Barkmann knocked out nine Shermans and several other American vehicles and halted an American armoured attack. For his actions, he was awarded the Knight's Cross. After the launch of Operation Cobra, the Das Reich avoided encirclement in the Falaise Pocket and, alongside the 9.SS-Panzer-Division Hohenstaufen, fought to hold open an escape route for the trapped German forces. After the collapse of the Pocket, the Das Reich fell back towards the West Wall. During the retreat, Barkmann was involved in many desperate rearguard actions, destroying many American vehicles.

[Shawn 507]

[quote=klussdog;81370]Guys, I remember reading about Barkmann's exploit in Normandy. The book was Armor Battles Of The Waffen SS by Fey (Stackpole Military Books), very good read.

Yes, I would agree that he's often in the shadows of Wittmann's fame but I do not think that any Tank Ace comes close to Wittmann's achievements. Read Tiger Ace - The Life Story Of Panzer Commander Michael Wittmann by Simpson

Someone was stating that German Armor achievements can't be substantiated, that's just hog wash!
The Germans had far superior armament, armor plating and optics in their tanks (Mark IV, Jagdpanzer, Stug, Panther, Jagdpanther, Tiger & King Tigers) And a crap maintianence record, not rumor but fact!! This is not rumors this is the fact - Read Death Traps by Belton V Cooper. He states that the Sherman was a piece of junk and had a pee shooter for a gun. Belton Cooper bless his soul was too efected by the carnage to be objective, bottom line.When the Russian first got their Lend Lease tanks they called the Sherman a Grave for Five Brothers,That was in reference to the M3 Lee, and its "7 Brothers". They actually loved the Sherman over the T-34. The Germans called it the Tommy Cooker; one hit and the thing burst into flames . Ever see how quick the Panther in Cologne went up? Here is a link: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...09970606269&hl Its near the end of the film, quite the Hun Cooker. As a matter of fact even the Cromwell was a better tank than the Sherman. No just faster.
But none of the above substantiates claims by German tank men now does it. Dont be so impressed by what you read that it fogs being objective.

Not until the 17pdr was jammed into the Sherman by the Brits did it even stand a chance against a Panther or Tiger. As a matter of fact it's said that a Firefly was what did Wittmann in but there is still controversy to this It is said that a flight of Typhoons was engaging Wittmann's armor column at the time of Wittmann's demise. The column which Wittmann was in just started to engage over 100 Allied tanks (nothing that he was not used to after being stationed on the Eastern Front). The Allies called in Air Support and this was answered by a flight of Typhoons with Rockets. Take a look at the picture of Wittmann's tank, I do not think that a Firefly firing at the thickest armor of a Tiger could inflict that much carnage. Looks more like a rocket through the top armor plate setting off the ammo.
Jump over to the Pub for more discussions on the Sherman vs German debate. Under Nice things to talk about.