[CLLCTR5]

Originally Posted by FormerViperDriver

Your points are interesting but also they are not really relevant. The bottom line is that I only have so much money to spend on diecast (like most collectors, I assume). I used to spend a lot of it on CDC/FM.Armour models. Now I have other choices, while simultaneously that company not only increases their prices (a lot, let's no quibble if it's 30 or 40%) but also brings out inferior products (Mirage III downright ugly, F-22 only so-so, and the F-4F Wildcat doesn't look too great in pre-pro pictures - and anyway I already have the Carousel One version). So this has to be a bad joke. I have a lot of CDC/FM models in my collection from past years, but I'm not buying any more, and that's that. Thankfully I got my B-17 and B-24 when prices were better.

Now, if in 2008 FM (or TFM, whatever) increases their quality and comes out with interesting new moulds, maybe I'll re-assess. But I'm betting the laws of economics will rule in the end anyway (kind of like gravity...) and prices will be forced down. Although I still wouldn't buy their Mirage III at any price. Heck, wouldn't take it even if you paid me!

To me, Franklin Mint seem to have the same attitude that brought down the Big Three in the automobile business: let's not worry about quality and value, these idiot customers will buy anything we dish at them anyway. See where that got them?

Mark my words...

FVD

FVD,

I hope you read my subsequent post after you replied to my initial post.

In case you didn't...I will repeat.

The completely new owners at TFM...the ones that are currently working on their very 1st projects...projects that we will not see in at least one year...know that some middle class collectors will probably buy fewer models or will not be able to afford any at all unless it really strikes them and they can justify it. They get it. That's why they will be manufacturing fewer models. For the 1st time since I have been a dealer (8 years) they are now doing LE1000's. The bottom line is when you make fewer models...costs go up even more. Volume is the only thing that cuts into investment costs and Morgan Mint is investing a TON of money into what they purchased.

The good news is...they have re-hired quite a few creative people that were not employed under the old TFM when they purchased it. Those people also know that some middle class collectors will not buy a model unless it really strikes them, so you have to imagine that is a lot of pressure on them...and pressure + coal = diamonds. Even then collectors might not buy great new images because of the new financial restraints...so they have to make less to sell out of each model on time. It's a darn shame that collectibles made for enjoyment actually have to have a business plan behind them (similar to your collectibles business plan at home), but I think the new owners at TFM actually have their heads screwed on. We will see...won't we now?

[CLLCTR5]

Originally Posted by Armour Addict

Hi FVD! Gut geht's, danke! Dir auch? Das schöne Wetter genossen? :-D

Here in Germany some retailers charge up to 169€ ~ $230 for a B-17. That is WAY too much for my comfort. Especially if you know what the retailer pays at the distributor.

AA

AA,

Please remember that under those circumstances retailers are extremely lucky (or very very good) if they make 10% on that model after basic and necessary overhead costs are factored in. It is usually less than 5%. It was less than 0% for me last year simply due to an untimely snowstorm right before Christmas.

Remember the next time you (anyone here) are working with any retailer who is in business for themselves...often times they are practically working for free. Just trying to pay the landlord back so he doesn't lose his house. I don't mean to be dramatic here I just have been both a retailer and a consumer for so long...I can only hope we can all get along. (/ Rodney King).

[Ara1]

Originally Posted by CLLCTR5

any retailer who is in business for themselves...often times they are practically working for free.

Excellent point.

[Armour Addict]

Originally Posted by CLLCTR5

AA,

Please remember that under those circumstances retailers are extremely lucky (or very very good) if they make 10% on that model after basic and necessary overhead costs are factored in. It is usually less than 5%. It was less than 0% for me last year simply due to an untimely snowstorm right before Christmas.

Remember the next time you (anyone here) are working with any retailer who is in business for themselves...often times they are practically working for free. Just trying to pay the landlord back so he doesn't lose his house. I don't mean to be dramatic here I just have been both a retailer and a consumer for so long...I can only hope we can all get along. (/ Rodney King).

Well, as I pointed out I know how much a retailer pays for a model. There is a considerable margin for the retailer (at least over here). And in my example the retailer (who sells for 169€ ~ $230) definitively makes more than 10% since another retailer offers the same model for 129€ ~ $175. Surely one has to factor in all costs in order to have a viable comparision. That's why pure online stores offer better prices than store retailers.

Anyway, if I would deal for 0% profit I would seriously reconsider my business model or recalculate my business case. I work as a strategic purchaser for a bank in Germany. So it is more or less an "occupational hazzard" that I always try to find the best deal on the market. But I always strive to "live and let live". It is not my goal to wring the last $ out of a supplier. I always try to establish a win-win situation for both parties.

Currently I have around 120 CDC & FM Armour models. And I never, not only once, paid the MSRP. From that point I would say I know the market and the prices. I have four retailers I buy from and they offer very good prices to me. If they would sell for 0% profit to me, how come they still want to do business with me?! That can't be pure desperation I would say! That said I can only stress the point that we get along just fine...

AA

[FormerViperDriver]

Originally Posted by CLLCTR5

FVD,

I hope you read my subsequent post after you replied to my initial post.

In case you didn't...I will repeat.

The completely new owners at TFM...the ones that are currently working on their very 1st projects...projects that we will not see in at least one year...know that some middle class collectors will probably buy fewer models or will not be able to afford any at all unless it really strikes them and they can justify it. They get it. That's why they will be manufacturing fewer models. For the 1st time since I have been a dealer (8 years) they are now doing LE1000's. The bottom line is when you make fewer models...costs go up even more. Volume is the only thing that cuts into investment costs and Morgan Mint is investing a TON of money into what they purchased.

The good news is...they have re-hired quite a few creative people that were not employed under the old TFM when they purchased it. Those people also know that some middle class collectors will not buy a model unless it really strikes them, so you have to imagine that is a lot of pressure on them...and pressure + coal = diamonds. Even then collectors might not buy great new images because of the new financial restraints...so they have to make less to sell out of each model on time. It's a darn shame that collectibles made for enjoyment actually have to have a business plan behind them (similar to your collectibles business plan at home), but I think the new owners at TFM actually have their heads screwed on. We will see...won't we now?

No, I did read your second post. That's why I wrote that I would re-assess my position if in 2008 TFM comes up with quality/inovative models that I just feel I "must have." Price would still be a factor, but at least I can swallow paying more (up to a point) if product quality warrants it. So let's see what 2008 brings.

Everything I've written is based on what I learned while earning my MBA, not simply as an avid diecast collector. It may be sad that even entertainment/hobby companies have to have a business plan, but that's real life. I don't have the advantage to go to TFM board meetings, so I have to make my assessment on what I see and observe. Apparently, you are in the priviledged position of having more inside information about what's going to happen, so I'll take your word that things are on track to improve. It's just that the recent past leaves me a bit skeptical (but I wouldn't use the word "cynical").

Believe me, no one is more saddened than me by the current situation with FM/Armour. I build my initial collection around their product (and CDC before that) and I'm a big fan of 1/48, a scale which happens to be their specialty. That's why I am concerned (I can't tell you my disappointment when I first saw the Mirage III. I had so been looking forward to it). Hopefully what you say is true and new management will steer a new course. No one will be more happy about that than me.

FVD

[CLLCTR5]

Originally Posted by Armour Addict

Well, as I pointed out I know how much a retailer pays for a model. There is a considerable margin for the reatiler (at least over here) And in my example the retailer (who sells for 169€ ~ $230) definitively makes more than 10% since another retailer offers the same model for 129€ ~ $175. Surely one has to factor in all costs in order to have a viable comparision. That's why pure online stores offer better prices than store retailers.

Anyway, if I would deal for 0% profit I would seriously reconsider my business model or recalculate my business case. I work as a strategic purchaser for a bank in Germany. So it is more or less an "occupational hazzard" that I always try to find the best deal on the market. But I always strive to "live and let live". It is not my goal to wring the last $ out of a supplier. I always try to establish a win-win situation for both parties.

Currently I have around 120 CDC & FM Armour models. And I never, not only once, paid the MSRP. From that point I would say I know the market and the prices. I have four retailers I buy from and they offer very good prices to me. If they would sell for 0% profit to me, how come they still want to do business with me?! That can't be pure desperation I would say! That said I can only stress the point that we get along just fine...

AA

AA,

Thanks for the response.

Surely you realize that the retailer does not know how each individual sale in each of the 12 months to you will factor into their annual sales and profit figures on Dec. 31. They have a good idea...but there are too many unknowns that can happen from a measurable amount of what we call "shrinkage" (damage, defect, theft) to outright fraud (bad checks, bogus wire tranfers, misappropriated accounting). The latter is rare but it does happen. As do snowstorms. The slightest blip in inventory vs. volume can wreak great havoc.

Your reference to reconsidering a business model seems slightly short-sighted and perhaps even a bit condescending...almost as if we have some immortal control over the weather. Vistable retailers in the rocky mountains and quite a few other regions lost any chance for a profit with the worst overall weather conditions that NA has seen in over 35 years. I get it...we will receive little sympathy from you. No problem...we'll just keep hard it it because it is something that we all love. I could easily make more $ in another occupation but $ is not at the top of the priority list for me...thank goodness.

All in all it is the thoughtful and learned collector who realizes that if the retailer makes a bit of a profit...that retailer will likely re-invest. You can bet your bottom dollar that I will...every single penny of it. Which means the manufacturers make slightly more dollars and they always re-invest it creatively. I say always, but it is indeed arguable that it will please everyone. Bottom line is we are dealing with non-essential goods here so they have to be very pleasing and you will not find more pressure on anyone than the creative teams working for diecast manufactrers. They are both very gifted and very human. And as a collector I cannot wait to see what they come up with next!

Best Regards,

Randy

[Ara1]

Originally Posted by FormerViperDriver

...based on what I learned while earning my MBA,
FVD

Right there with ya, FVD (Northeastern University, '99). And I look at the market in the same way.

I would also like to add that the concept of the "pull system" works a whole lot better than pushing product into the market. Getting the customer involved with the process, and as such, allowing the customer to "pull" product demand, greatly aids sales. And your win-win scenario.

Eagles Int'l is doing just that in other threads and I am convinced their forthcoming products will be all the better for their efforts.

[CLLCTR5]

Originally Posted by Ara1

Right there with ya, FVD (Northeastern University, '99). And I look at the market in the same way.

I would also like to add that the concept of the "pull system" works a whole lot better than pushing product into the market. Getting the customer involved with the process, and as such, allowing the customer to "pull" product demand, greatly aids sales. And your win-win scenario.

Eagles Int'l is doing just that in other threads and I am convinced their forthcoming products will be all the better for their efforts.

Just for the record...TFM does a great deal of "pulling" such as this. I was privaleged to find out about the possibility of the B-26 and Eurofighter Typhoon projects along with several others that have not come to fruition (yet) a good year and a half before they were released. They sent out a fax to some top dealers asking what images their customers would most like to see. I polled several great aviation minds here in Colorado Springs and I informed TFM of the results. Some of "our" picks "won"...some didn't. But I'm sure the picks that won had very good support elsewhere.

There is one image that I know for a fact that TFM has had plans for about 3 years now and if they do it I am going to be extremely pleased as both a collector and a retailer. It is ONE HUGE PROJECT that will make a very big statement for diecast military aviation fans. Unfortunately...the project is...and will only get much more....expensive...as it is eventually tooled and released. No way around that.

[Armour Addict]

Originally Posted by CLLCTR5

AA,

Thanks for the response.

Surely you realize that the retailer does not know how each individual sale in each of the 12 months to you will factor into their annual sales and profit figures on Dec. 31. They have a good idea...but there are too many unknowns that can happen from a measurable amount of what we call "shrinkage" (damage, defect, theft) to outright fraud (bad checks, bogus wire tranfers, misappropriated accounting). The latter is rare but it does happen. As do snowstorms. The slightest blip in inventory vs. volume can wreak great havoc.

Your reference to reconsidering a business model seems slightly short-sighted and perhaps even a bit condescending...almost as if we have some immortal control over the weather. Vistable retailers in the rocky mountains and quite a few other regions lost any chance for a profit with the worst overall weather conditions that NA has seen in over 35 years. I get it...we will receive little sympathy from you. No problem...we'll just keep hard it it because it is something that we all love. I could easily make more $ in another occupation but $ is not at the top of the priority list for me...thank goodness.

All in all it is the thoughtful and learned collector who realizes that if the retailer makes a bit of a profit...that retailer will likely re-invest. You can bet your bottom dollar that I will...every single penny of it. Which means the manufacturers make slightly more dollars and they always re-invest it creatively. I say always, but it is indeed arguable that it will please everyone. Bottom line is we are dealing with non-essential goods here so they have to be very pleasing and you will not find more pressure on anyone than the creative teams working for diecast manufactrers. They are both very gifted and very human. And as a collector I cannot wait to see what they come up with next!

Best Regards,

Randy

Randy,

I am always open to a good natured discussion.

And yes, the retailer will only know at the end of the year how successfull he has been. After factoring in all unforseen problems such as the ones you mentioned. On the other hand he will always know ho much he "must" have in order to still make a profit on each individual sale. And he does not have to sell me anything. So if I would make him an unaccepatble offer he simply wouldn't sell. Thats what trading is all about.

I was not my aim to insult you or your business policy. Sorry, that my english is not always as precise as I want it to be, its only my secondary language. I was not refering to a single "no-gain" business year but to problems related to the product and or the market you are in. If the margin is so low that one cannot live from it I would rethink my business, period. That's simply my opinion how I would do it. Its not about extreme weather messing up your business. Of course you have my sympathy to what happened to you. Again, its nothing personal. There is always one or other problem for which the retailer is not responsible. I am not that short-sighted that I leave a retailer hanging if FM or the parcel service let him down...

Hm, that sound like you see the opposite of that in me. That's okay. It is obvious that the retailer and the manufacturer should re-invest in order to stay in business. On the other hand, why should I spend $105 on the new FM Raptor when I can get it for $65? I don't think you would either. And regardless of what offer I take FM will get the same amount of money. And I seldom met any retailer who is not willing to offer a good natured rebate when I take 3-4 models in one buy. An if I wouldn't be content or better said happy with FM why would I have so many models? I am also looking forward to the new releases and developments for 2008

Best Regards,
Stephan

[Ara1]

Originally Posted by CLLCTR5

There is one image that I know for a fact that TFM has had plans for about 3 years now and if they do it I am going to be extremely pleased as both a collector and a retailer. It is ONE HUGE PROJECT that will make a very big statement for diecast military aviation fans. Unfortunately...the project is...and will only get much more....expensive...as it is eventually tooled and released. No way around that.

I've run this thru the Ara-meter and I'm guessing B-29. Been wrong before, though.