[bsmith13]

Originally Posted by Migmauler

Ok ya got me- I was only trying to stir up a little conversation. But if I remember my history, between the to aircraft in question, the P-51 had a higher number or air-to-air kills than the P-47 even though the Mustang did not show up in appreciable numbers until 1943 while the T'bolt was around from the beginning.

The beginning? July 1942 was the beginning of 8th AF, wasn't it? That's about 18 months in service (assuming groups converting to the Mustang in December, versus 15 months for the Mustang. Also remember that the time frame is not nearly as indicative as the number of airframes in service. There were far more Mustangs in service that Thunderbolts. The fact that the margin between the 4th FG and the 56th FG is so narrow is a testament to the skill and aggressiveness of the 56th pilots.

But all this is really neither here nor there. The best fighter pilots and fighter units were those that adapted their tactics to the strengths and weaknesses of the airframe they flew. A bad pilot could make a great plane mediocre, and a great pilot could make a bad plane great.

[Migmauler]

For the record on the P-51 vs. P-47 issue:
In 1942 there were 104 P-47s and 0 P-51s deployed. 1943- '47=1910, '51=368. 1944- '47=3702, '51=2918. 8/1945- '47=3111, '51=3101. Wartime total- '47=8827, '51=6381. Total production- '47=15,683, '51=15,686. Total sorties- '47=423,435 and the '51=213,873. Total air to air kills- '47=3082 and '51= 4950.*

So.....in about half the number of sorties the P-51 racked up 1,868 more air-to-air kills than the P-47. Those are the numbers; one is free to draw his own conclusion as they certainly don't tell the whole story.

*Article "The Best WWII Fighter" by Corky Meyer, Flight Journal Magazine 8/03

P.S.- Based primarily on survivability and number of sorties, among other criteria, Mr. Meyer concluded the P-47 to be the best fighter of the war.

[planenutsfrog]

Originally Posted by Migmauler

Put me in the '51 camp. It's a good thing the '47 could absorb so much punishment since it took a great deal by not being able to outfly a 190 or 109. (I said outfly, not outdive). The Mustang didn't have to be so tough- it simply flew out of harm's way!

I have to disagree my friend : the P51D as a long range escort fighter had deliberately less favourable a power to weight ratio than interceptors (Me109, FW190, Spitfire...). However, thanks to its superior aerodynamics, higher weight, compounded by altitude advantage it could easily outdive any of them.
On the other hand, if its level speed was still good, its climbing speed was rather poor.
The P51H was precisely designed to cure this limitation.
The tactical conditions in wich the P51 was ingaged over Germany were ideally suited to its capabilities and consequently success was tremendous.

[bsmith13]

Hey Migmauler,

Is that "Total Sorties" figure for ALL P-47s/P-51s worldwide, or those in Europe, or those in 8AF?

Funny how we could discuss this all day...

[Migmauler]

Originally Posted by bsmith13

Hey Migmauler,

Is that "Total Sorties" figure for ALL P-47s/P-51s worldwide, or those in Europe, or those in 8AF?

Funny how we could discuss this all day...

I believe that is total for all theaters. There was no notation in the article indicating otherwise.

[Migmauler]

Originally Posted by planenutsfrog

I have to disagree my friend : the P51D as a long range escort fighter had deliberately less favourable a power to weight ratio than interceptors (Me109, FW190, Spitfire...). However, thanks to its superior aerodynamics, higher weight, compounded by altitude advantage it could easily outdive any of them.
On the other hand, if its level speed was still good, its climbing speed was rather poor.
The P51H was precisely designed to cure this limitation.
The tactical conditions in wich the P51 was ingaged over Germany were ideally suited to its capabilities and consequently success was tremendous.

After I chewed on this one for awhile I decided to look it up. I always thought climb rate was one of the P-51 attributes. So, for the record, from "The Great Book of WWII Airplanes" re: Climb Rates (initial):

Me109-G-6/R6- 3346 ft/min (17.0 m/sec)
Spitfire Mk VIII- 3000 ft/min (15.24 m/sec)
FW 190D-9- 3300 ft/min (16.8 m/sec)
P-51B- 3900 ft/min (19.8 m/sec)
P-51D- 3475 ft/min (17.7 m/sec)

[Hornchurch]

Originally Posted by Migmauler

After I chewed on this one for awhile I decided to look it up. I always thought climb rate was one of the P-51 attributes. So, for the record, from "The Great Book of WWII Airplanes" re: Climb Rates (initial):

Me109-G-6/R6- 3346 ft/min (17.0 m/sec)
Spitfire Mk VIII- 3000 ft/min (15.24 m/sec)
FW 190D-9- 3300 ft/min (16.8 m/sec)
P-51B- 3900 ft/min (19.8 m/sec)
P-51D- 3475 ft/min (17.7 m/sec)

You ain't done the Hawker Tempest - shame it's not in the book.....(or Mk XIV Spitfire).

[Hornchurch]

Originally Posted by Migmauler

After I chewed on this one for awhile I decided to look it up. I always thought climb rate was one of the P-51 attributes. So, for the record, from "The Great Book of WWII Airplanes" re: Climb Rates (initial):

Me109-G-6/R6- 3346 ft/min (17.0 m/sec)
Spitfire Mk VIII- 3000 ft/min (15.24 m/sec)
FW 190D-9- 3300 ft/min (16.8 m/sec)
P-51B- 3900 ft/min (19.8 m/sec)

P-51D- 3475 ft/min (17.7 m/sec)

Apparently, the Initial climb rate for the Hawker Tempest V , is........

Tempest - 4,700 ft/min (other sources quote 4,520 ft/min)

Makes both versions of the P.51 Mustang look like an 'also-ran'.......

[Migmauler]

Gee Whiz Horny,
8 Squadrons of Tempests with about 250 air kills hardly makes the Mustang an also ran. As we say here in the country, that dog don't hunt! Besides, no matter what it's performance, she sure was a homely bird. No offense, but I'll take a Mustang any day. OTOH, you should take credit in the fact that the Brits were responsible for making the Mustang the plane she came to be.

[SKUNKY]

Originally Posted by Migmauler

Gee Whiz Horny,

Nice!......