[23enigma61]

in a previous thread i voiced my concern re track faults endemic in the range,with no responses from anyone which leads me to believe i am the only collector who has this concern and the only sufferer but this fault reduces the value of the range, worryingly for all of us is the RRP increase,new shermans will carry a RRP of £16.99 ,sitting next to other shermans at £ 10.99, that is some increase.It means that when you went to buy 3 models on your wish list you now can only buy 2.Has dragon thrown us the bait and now is trying to reel us in.i know from speaking to my main supplier there are plenty of dragon armor stock avail so its not as if all the old stock is not available any longer to buy.In my humble opinion recent 1.72 hybrib tigers are poor relatives to earlier tigers,they look like toys not collector pieces FO5 and F13 are shocking renditions of the real things.Returning to the shermans my main supplier wont stock them bcause " no one buys them ".I have tried my best to convince him otherwise ,to no avail.Has anyone else encountered this? Dragon need to take stock of where they are taking this range, this increase will only increase my own expectations and vigilance when i next buy and if the model is not upto my expectations i will not buy after all the prices are not toy prices are they,?Cmon dragon gives us something to get our teeth into,rubbish tigers is not the answer,if they insist in a price hike give something back to your loyal followers or they will go elsewhere with their hard earned money.HOBBY MASTER perhaps!

[MoMo]

23enigma61 has made some clear points. Dragon have slowed down.

The point re tracks is a valid one. Some are unsatisfactory. But, I can live with it as long as Dragon beats new ground and corrects their mistakes. Trouble is, they don't seem to be doing so.

The point about price hikes can only be addressed by Dragon reducing costs. If they reduce the quality of their finish and build, they lose customers. If they reduce labour costs, they have to move and train new workers. Bit your tongues guys, it looks as if we have lost the edge on hard currencies and the benefits of having our favourite products being produced in China. The days of cheap prices are coming to an end. The guys at Treasure Bunker were saying that the figure ranges from King and Country, produced in China, have gone up to £40.00 per figure.........Dragon is just reacting to the costs hike and the rising standard of living in China.

The market is saturated with older Dragon stock. Mostly all those repaints, turncoats and Mouses having a bath!

The point about Dragon having to wake up to the customers' wishes is well made. We all want something new. How about a Mark lV Panzer to start with? A Stuart? etc......

Dragons should breathe fire, not lay eggs!

[Cardinal]

Originally Posted by MoMo

23enigma61 has made some clear points. Dragon have slowed down.

The point re tracks is a valid one. Some are unsatisfactory. But, I can live with it as long as Dragon beats new ground and corrects their mistakes. Trouble is, they don't seem to be doing so.

The point about price hikes can only be addressed by Dragon reducing costs. If they reduce the quality of their finish and build, they lose customers. If they reduce labour costs, they have to move and train new workers. Bit your tongues guys, it looks as if we have lost the edge on hard currencies and the benefits of having our favourite products being produced in China. The days of cheap prices are coming to an end. The guys at Treasure Bunker were saying that the figure ranges from King and Country, produced in China, have gone up to £40.00 per figure.........Dragon is just reacting to the costs hike and the rising standard of living in China.

The market is saturated with older Dragon stock. Mostly all those repaints, turncoats and Mouses having a bath!

The point about Dragon having to wake up to the customers' wishes is well made. We all want something new. How about a Mark lV Panzer to start with? A Stuart? etc......

Dragons should breathe fire, not lay eggs!

Don't they do both?

[Legio LXXII]

Unfortunately Dragon doesn't care that much what collectors want. Let's face it, this is a small hobby/market compared to say the plastic model market which Dragon also does and where their real (big) money comes from. Collectors see it if Dragon decides to make it available as a plastic kit. The factors that determine what is made as a 1/72 plastic kit also determine what is made in 1/72 diecast (prebuilt, prepainted).

Compare this to say Hobby Master that has just one market, the diecast collecting market. They make what collectors want because that's all they do, where as Dragon produces products to meet several markets (ours being the smaller market for Dragon). The small collectors market will never be as big as the plastic kit market. Like any other sensible company Dragon will focus more on what makes them the most money. In this case they're making more in the plastic model kit market than the diecast market.

I've seen a few Dragon Armor tanks with oddly connected tracks, but never anything too bad or beyond what I could fix myself (I've had more problems with improperly mounted road wheels). Unfortunately their prices are going up a bit, but really what hasn't gone up in price recently? I still believe you get good value for your money. I doubt most of us could find someone to commission to supply, build and paint a plastic kit for the same price and quality as Dragon Armor.

[23enigma61]

i dont believe dragon dont care what military diecast collectors want,WHY PRODUCE THE PRODUCT IN THE FIRST PLACE?when "plastic kits are king".In reality1.72 scale dragon kits did not sell in the anticipated numbers in the ratio to production line costs.dragon using business acumen foreseen a gap in the market "PREBUILDS/ PREPAINTS FOR THE GROWING COLLECTORS MARKET".dragon then decided to add a small amount of lead weight to them and call them DIECAST COLLECTABLES,a totally different market to "plastic kits".diecast model collectors are a different beast to plastic kit modellers,name alone tells you that,collectors will buy more models for their collection,per head,than plastic kit modellers will buy to build,the majority of plastic kit modellers DO NOT COLLECT COMPLETED MODELS,THEIR INSPIRATION IS THE BUILD NOT THE COLLECTING.colectors and modellers are opposites within a similar interest.in respect to commissions against mass production,A COMMISSION IS A PERSONAL PREFERENCE AND SHOULD COST MORE,MASS PRODUCTION IS IMPERSONAL AND THEREFORE SHOULD BE COMPARABLY LESS EXPENSIVE ,if it wasnt then someone at dragon productions got their costings terribly wrong .if dragons production costs are increasing,they need to make the neccesary changes to minimise the increase,not just shrug the shoulder and pass it on to the customer( US).A 60% increase is not keeping ones eyes on the ball .GIVE US A BREAK DRAGON.
.

[Legio LXXII]

Originally Posted by 23enigma61

WHY PRODUCE THE PRODUCT IN THE FIRST PLACE?.

It's fairly common knowledge that the Dragon diecast tanks are nothing more than the plastic kits prebuilt and prepainted for you. In fact you can sometimes even see where the parts for the diecast tanks were taken off the plastic sprue because the person putting it together didn't clean it up enough. So to answer the question they are produced in the first place for the plastic kit market and then come out in the diecast market. They are not two completely distinct products, more one product designed to fit two markets (the plastic kit market having a much larger influence on them).

When the Dragon Armor range started they were originally made with diecast hulls, hence the "diecast" name. Dragon also included this same diecast hull in with the plastic kits but modelers hated it and complained so much that Dragon discontinued the diecast hulls. This further shows that modelers mean much more to them than collectors since they listened to the model makers that didn't want diecast hulls and ignored collectors that wanted diecast hulls. The lead weight was put in Dragon Armor tanks after the diecast hulls were discontinued so they could still call them "diecast" (though a few have a metal bottom chassis).

There's obviously a huge difference between most modelers and diecast collectors, though it's pretty clear Dragon is much more interested in what modelers want and collectors will get in diecast what ever they decide to make as a plastic kit. I still think their prices are in line with other large companies in similar markets. Most companies have had to raise their prices, it happens. It's up to each person to do their homework so they know where to get the best deals from. I haven't paid over $19 for any Dragon Armor (except those on diorama bases or limited editions) ever.

Originally Posted by 23enigma61

collectors will buy more models for their collection,per head,than plastic kit modellers will buy to build

.
If only that were true, LOL. I'm pretty active in both hobbies (model building and diecast collecting) so maybe I notice it more.

[MoMo]

I collect pre-built and kit Dragons. I visit the outlets which sell kits and outlets which sell pre-builds. I would hazard a guess that the kits sell in about the same numbers as pre-builds.

Also, you have to appreciate that many of the kits have parts which you do not find on the pre-builds because they have been left off, owing to costs and the fact that you have to have a reasonable modelling skills in order to take advantage of, and to make use of, the many photo-etched parts which many kits have. For example, we have yet to see a Sherman with bocage-cutting dozer blades, yet you can find this dozer blade in some Sherman kits. Also, many of the tiny parts of 251s are photo-etched but you don't find many in pre-built 251s.

If you want to face a challenge, buy the kit. If you wish to appreciate someone's art and expertise, buy the pre-build.

There's room for all under the wide canopy of the hanger.

[23enigma61]

i undersand the need for a price increase,but 60%,is stretching my understanding a little .dragon must be run by the british gov," if in doubt put the price up".if i was to increase my own hourly rate by 60% ,i would have no customers left to service.dont take me the wrong way ,in my humble opinion,dragon produce a fantastic range and i hope that standard continues,if the increase means a consistently great product then thats fine,but i wont be happy if the standard falls and the price continues to rise.i have bought 4 @1.72 and 1@1.35 today ,and i got them for a price i was more than happy to pay,and as long as that continues then i will be happy.i am certain dragon know their business and can separate the diecast collector and the plastic kit modeller and will duly fulfill their obligation to provide a quality range of goods to all of us .MOMO thanks for the challenge to build but i dont have the inclination or the time for such tedium ,thats why i collect,when i want something, i want it now not as and when i can find the time to indulge in my passion,and i think im a patient man .

[Legio LXXII]

Momo,

Good point about some delicate bits being left off. My point is that both start out as the same thing, meaning Dragon Armor comes from the plastic kits. Some pieces might be left off but they start with the plastic kit to come up with Dragon Armor.

From my personal experience, you can find plastic kits in just about any worth while well stocked hobby shop but the same can't be said about Dragon Armor. I am fortunate to travel quite a lot due to work and have been able to visit hobby shops across the US and Europe. While it's been relatively easy to find plastic kits in most hobby stores, finding Dragon Armor is less common. Of course not every store is the same and I'm sure someone will say they've traveled across the US and Europe and it's been the exact opposite for them. I'm just talking of my personal experience, as well as personal discussions and emails I get every week from collectors looking for online vendors because there are no stores that stock diecast in their area.

There's definitely room for what everyone likes. I just think Dragon would listen to a modeler before a collector. Modelers complain that they're not being listened to either, so collectors aren't alone in thinking they're being ignored.

[23enigma61]

I managed to buy 60035,60037 and 60038, what fantastic models.The last two are the missing jagdpanthers,at first site they seem to be an improvement on previous jagdpanthers,comments please ,the batus challenger is amazing real quality. iam using this lull in new releases to good use by catching up on old releases i had missed ,ignored or bypassed.my attention has been focused on increasing my 1.35 plastic kit collection,i have even missed the king tiger 1.35 dragon releases but i have rectified that mistake.Where are all the shermans,jagdpanthers,jagdtigers and late tigers with zimmerit and sturmtigers in 1.35.thers so much potential in this scale so when will it happen?