[23enigma61]

i am not an admirer of FOV ,i have bought two in the past ,after a long debate with myself,the su122,and the sherman mine roller,just to fill the gaps in my collection.in my humble opinion FOV is the poor cousin to DRAGON,most of the range look like a starter product,a good introduction to collecting but nothing more, just compare both ranges T34 /85,at first glance FOV looked great stood alone,when stood next to the DRAGON version,it looked poor.please note this is only my opinion,other people will think FOV are great to collect but they dont do it for me.i feel the same way about HOBBYMASTER but i do like the M10 ACHILLES in the range,( not so sure about the 17 pounder shells in their racks,looks somewhat tacky to me ) its not cheap to buy so i will probably give it a miss and wait for DRAGON to release it ( thats a laugh,it may come out as a captured german M10 or in 10 years time).

[Paladin18]

Originally Posted by PickMattock

I think instead of us coming to terms with Dragons flaws, Dragon needs to come to terms with the fact we have a low tolerance for inaccurate models. If we go out and buy everything they sell, mistakes and all, what is their motivation to tool accurate vehicles in the future? If they can get our money with good research or no research at all, guess which one they'll settle for.

Let's face it. That's not going to happen because only a few collectors have a low threshold for models with the slighest...and I stress the word slightest...inaccuracies. Some of these flaws are obvious to only a very few. The large majority of collectors are either not aware of inaccuracies, come to terms with it or just shrug it off, which explains why Dragon's products sell very well.

At the end of the day, this is a commercial business. Manufacturers have no incentive to strive relentlessly to produce the perfect model at the most affordable price unless competition drives it such. They just have to come up with products that are better than what's currently available and put them out at a price that they believe the targeted markets can carry. Dragon is doing just that...and that's how the market works.

To be fair, Dragon's products are of a high quality compared to FOV and others presently in the market...and price competitive too. As collectors, we have a choice too. As said by others, if we don't like it, we just don't buy it.

[Paladin18]

Originally Posted by 23enigma61

good shout momo,more allied stuff with more imaginative camo schemes,there was plenty around to go around,dragon have produced enough german vehicles over the years time for a rest,time to balance the range,what about M3 LEE / GRANT,M10 WOLVERINE / ACHILLES,M12,M3 HALFTRACKS,RAMS,KANGAROO,DODGE TRUCKS,JEEPS the choice is endless,all dragon needs is some imagination not obsession,with everything GERMAN ,we will see a GERMAN GULASHKANONEN ( field kitchen ) SOON,then a U BOAT or a FIELD MAINTENANCE TRUCK,to go with all the GERMAN ARMOUR.

Sentiments echoed Dragon's failure to expand their range of diecast AFVs have allowed others like Hobby Master and Easy Model to steal a march on them.

[DirtyACE]

Originally Posted by Paladin18

Let's face it. That's not going to happen because only a few collectors have a low threshold for models with the slighest...and I stress the word slightest...inaccuracies. Some of these flaws are obvious to only a very few. The large majority of collectors are either not aware of inaccuracies, come to terms with it or just shrug it off, which explains why Dragon's products sell very well.

At the end of the day, this is a commercial business. Manufacturers have no incentive to strive relentlessly to produce the perfect model at the most affordable price unless competition drives it such. They just have to come up with products that are better than what's currently available and put them out at a price that they believe the targeted markets can carry. Dragon is doing just that...and that's how the market works.

To be fair, Dragon's products are of a high quality compared to FOV and others presently in the market...and price competitive too. As collectors, we have a choice too. As said by others, if we don't like it, we just don't buy it.

Very well put. Unfortunately this is the nature of business. It's not necessarily what the customer wants but what the competition has, and so far Dragon has been ahead of the competition by a decent margin. Most of their models are second to none in many categories.

[PickMattock]

Originally Posted by Paladin18

Let's face it. That's not going to happen because only a few collectors have a low threshold for models with the slighest...and I stress the word slightest...inaccuracies. Some of these flaws are obvious to only a very few. The large majority of collectors are either not aware of inaccuracies, come to terms with it or just shrug it off, which explains why Dragon's products sell very well.

At the end of the day, this is a commercial business. Manufacturers have no incentive to strive relentlessly to produce the perfect model at the most affordable price unless competition drives it such. They just have to come up with products that are better than what's currently available and put them out at a price that they believe the targeted markets can carry. Dragon is doing just that...and that's how the market works.

Hey, if it doesn’t happen we’ll all have fond memories of Dragon. Just like their 1:6 scale offerings. They hoped collectors would either be ignorant of, or come to terms with their quality in a growing market …And they got creamed by the competition. (Just like 21st Century before them, and GI JOE before them...) When you get complacent and don’t listen to your fans, your fans move on. If DML doesn't think Hobby Master, for example, is competing with them for my dollars, they are very wrong.

And you can’t be serious about the flaws being only obvious to a very few. (Though I’m not sure how you’d even quantify that.) Their newest Sherman is a fantasy machine. Marketing vehicles as historically accurate when such vehicles were never even produced...Is that the sort of flaw collectors should just shrug off? I’d hardly call that the slightest inaccuracy…The entire product is inaccurate.

[Paladin18]

Originally Posted by PickMattock

Hey, if it doesn’t happen we’ll all have fond memories of Dragon. Just like their 1:6 scale offerings. They hoped collectors would either be ignorant of, or come to terms with their quality in a growing market …And they got creamed by the competition. (Just like 21st Century before them, and GI JOE before them...) When you get complacent and don’t listen to your fans, your fans move on. If DML doesn't think Hobby Master, for example, is competing with them for my dollars, they are very wrong.

And you can’t be serious about the flaws being only obvious to a very few. (Though I’m not sure how you’d even quantify that.) Their newest Sherman is a fantasy machine. Marketing vehicles as historically accurate when such vehicles were never even produced...Is that the sort of flaw collectors should just shrug off? You may be fine with it, but I’d hardly call that the slightest inaccuracy…The entire product is inaccurate.

What is serious to you is a trifle to others. Frankly, I do not believe that many people share your view at all, whether the new Sherman is a fantasy machine or whether Dragon should be forgiven for the so-called glaring mistakes. If that had been the view of the vast majority, Dragon would have closed shop years ago after being taken to task left, right and centre for coming up with products containing varying degrees of inaccuracies. No other manufacturer would haved dared ventured into diecast manufacturing because it is just not profitable for them to do so. Thankfully for us all, this is not the present situation.

I am not an apologist for Dragon nor do I have shares in the company. But I have spoken to their folks occasionally when I am in Hong Kong on business. They know what the vast majority wants and delivered to a large extent. The fact is that Dragon is one of the bigger players around and that their sales are improving year on year is testimony to that. They have succeeded thus far because they have satisfied the hunger in the market.

Many collectors are not gunning for an identical or exact replica of a machine that existed several decades ago. They want something that looks like the real thing, complete with interesting details and a nice touch of weathering for the bit of realism. This, fortunately or unfortunately (depends on where one stands), is what the majority of collectors are looking for.

As for oversight of inaccuracies and acceptance of mistakes, standards differ between individuals. This point has been mentioned many times in this thread (as well as in the Hobby Master thread which I did not pull the trigger) and probably there's no need for me to belabour the point.

If Dragon chooses to ignore the competition and compromises on their standards and fall by the wayside as a result, so be it. Let them pay the price for complacency. There will be others who will fill in the gap. Hobby Master is trying very hard and I hope that they can succeed in carving a niche alongside Dargon in the 1:72 market. I also hope that their products can bring about the much needed competition for Dragon to improve on their products, but I would like them first to overcome their Tiger obsession and expand their AFV range.

Paladin18

[PickMattock]

Well, their new Sherman being a fantasy machine is not an opinion, it’s a matter of fact. As far as the historical record is concerned no M4A1(75)w tanks were ever produced. Dragon may be able to dupe some people into thinking they were there on D-Day somewhere, but historically they weren’t anywhere at any time...They never exsisted. If you don’t consider that a “so-called glaring mistake,” what on Earth would you? You can't really be of the opinion that Dragon should re-imagine history, inventing new tanks to try and sell as period vehicles.

[Paladin18]

Originally Posted by PickMattock

Well, their new Sherman being a fantasy machine is not an opinion, it’s a matter of fact. As far as the historical record is concerned no M4A1(75)w tanks were ever produced. Dragon may be able to dupe some people into thinking they were there on D-Day somewhere, but historically they weren’t anywhere at any time...They never exsisted. If you don’t consider that a “so-called glaring mistake,” what on Earth would you? You can't really be of the opinion that Dragon should re-imagine history, inventing new tanks to try and sell as period vehicles.

Some facts matter and some facts don't. You have done your research and have pointed out the inaccuracies. That's well and good, and for most of us forummers, seeing you point them out here gives us additional knowledge about the products. It's up to the individual to decide which are such facts matter, and it's not up to any other individual to tell me which are the ones that do.

But whether Dragon should come to terms with our demands, failing which no one would buy their products, is an opinion...and an opinion that is debatable since current market realities do not reflect that opinion.

It is not a question about condoning Dragon's efforts to re-imagine history, inveting new tanks and selling them. For most collectors, it's whether the products appeal to us and if so, are we willing to pay the price for it. Most of us are not purists (for the lack of a better word) and we do not spend time constipating over issues like that. It takes the joy out of collecting diecast.

Paladin18

[23enigma61]

Great debate ,gentlemen,good to see the fervour you have for collecting,if i can offer my opinion ,DRAGON has a duty to its customers to produce accurate models to the best of their ability not to indulge in historical fantasy,we have hollywood for that.COLLECTORS should not need to posess doctorates on vehicles of ww2,what they need to posesss is a desire to have AS ACCURATE A COLLECTION AS POSSIBLE,in order to enjoy the models historical place and to ensure the models credibility as a COLLECTORS PIECE,rather than just a TOY FOR LITTLE BOYS OR FOR MEN WHO JUST REFUSE TO GROW UP.i consider myself a SERIOUS COLLECTOR of military model vehicles of ww2,i have no room for toys in my COLLECTION,i will only buy what i think is a REALISTIC RENDITION of the historical vehicle but i also buy with the knowledge that some INACCURACIES will in all probability exist on the model to an expert and not professing to be an expert i will not be able to notice the inaccuracies. WHAT OR WHO IS AN EXPERT ? I HAVE READ ,LISTENED TO SO CALLED EXPERTS IN THE PAST ,ONLY TO HAVE ANOTHER SO CALLED EXPERT DISPUTE THE INFORMATION BEING SITED ,so who is right and who is wrong ? its all a matter of opinion and interpretation,BUT LET US NOT INDULGE IN FANTASY,if we are, we really need to start collecting sci fi models to indulge our fantasies or watch hollywood movies.

[Paladin18]

Originally Posted by 23enigma61

Great debate ,gentlemen,good to see the fervour you have for collecting,if i can offer my opinion ,DRAGON has a duty to its customers to produce accurate models to the best of their ability not to indulge in historical fantasy,we have hollywood for that.COLLECTORS should not need to posess doctorates on vehicles of ww2,what they need to posesss is a desire to have AS ACCURATE A COLLECTION AS POSSIBLE,in order to enjoy the models historical place and to ensure the models credibility as a COLLECTORS PIECE,rather than just a TOY FOR LITTLE BOYS OR FOR MEN WHO JUST REFUSE TO GROW UP.i consider myself a SERIOUS COLLECTOR of military model vehicles of ww2,i have no room for toys in my COLLECTION,i will only buy what i think is a REALISTIC RENDITION of the historical vehicle but i also buy with the knowledge that some INACCURACIES will in all probability exist on the model to an expert and not professing to be an expert i will not be able to notice the inaccuracies. WHAT OR WHO IS AN EXPERT ? I HAVE READ ,LISTENED TO SO CALLED EXPERTS IN THE PAST ,ONLY TO HAVE ANOTHER SO CALLED EXPERT DISPUTE THE INFORMATION BEING SITED ,so who is right and who is wrong ? its all a matter of opinion and interpretation,BUT LET US NOT INDULGE IN FANTASY,if we are, we really need to start collecting sci fi models to indulge our fantasies or watch hollywood movies.

Excellent summary 23enigma61. You really are an enigma (haha!)
I think you have encapsulated the issues at hand in the most precise and succinct manner. Well done!

Paladin18