[five by five]

I never said it was still flying. I am simply trying to share and obtain info about B 17's. I get your point about Corgi. That was one of my reasons for posting.

[STARMAN 352ND]

Originally Posted by five by five

That is the first time i have seen the real 2nd Patches B-17...
Cool picture.
JP

[STARMAN 352ND]

If you have this book and go to pages 68 & 94 it will tell you a little about 2nd Patches
along with a similar photo of her.
JP

[timbo]

Originally Posted by five by five

I never said it was still flying. I am simply trying to share and obtain info about B 17's. I get your point about Corgi. That was one of my reasons for posting.

Sorry didn't mean to sound rude..

Did a quick search on 2nd Patches on Google coz I'm sure I read something different about this bird from somewhere, and came across this site:

B-17 Flying Fortress Units of the MTO - Google Book Search

It's got a very similar picture of 2nd Patches but from sightly different angle. The great thing about this picture is that it's clearly showing the patching to the wing AND the shark teeth on the chin turret. I know that there was some debate in the past about that and whether it was accurate.

[Hornchurch]

Originally Posted by timbo

That whole passage does not make sense!

If the original patches was shot down, then how can they have stripped it for parts for 2nd P?? It would be at the bottom of a smoking hole in a field. I have to say I do not think anyone at Corgi ever re-reads these potted histories before they publish them. There are tons of others like this. (like the RAF B25 based in Holand BEFORE D-Day!)

I also seem to vaguely remember that I found a pic somewhere on the web of 2nd Patches in use as a squadron hack, not an active bomber.

Originally Posted by five by five

"If the original patches was shot down, then how can they have stripped it for parts for 2nd P?? It would be at the bottom of a smoking hole in a field."


Not necessarily. I have photos of a B 17 in flight with the wing torn off up to the outboard engine. I don't know if the parts even came from original Patches. Also, it never says when the parts were swapped. I am just trying to establish a timeline and make some sense of this.

Lastly, I found this:


This IS without a doubt 2nd Patches. You can clearly see the vertical tail section, crew door, and under wing panel. Also the name Patches with the "2nd" above it. What you can't see is whether or not the chin turret has shark's teeth. It looks there is something on it, but it could just be a reflection. I can't tell which tail turret it has. The caption under the picture said:
" 99th Bomb Group, 346th Bomb Squadron, B-17 "Patches" with Checkertail escort."
I wonder where she is going???

Originally Posted by C17driver

This IS without a doubt 2nd Patches. You can clearly see the vertical tail section, crew door, and under wing panel. Also the name Patches with the "2nd" above it. What you can't see is whether or not the chin turret has shark's teeth. It looks there is something on it, but it could just be a reflection. I can't tell which tail turret it has. The caption under the picture said:
" 99th Bomb Group, 346th Bomb Squadron, B-17 "Patches" with Checkertail escort."
I wonder where she is going???

It has the E, F, and early G tail turret.

I wonder where she is going???[/quote] Either to or from the target.[/quote]

Originally Posted by Cardinal

Truly a profound and inspired observation/assumption ...

Boy, this is fun - nothing like a good ol' mass-debate (er, no puns or smutty jokes Gents, plz, simmer-down !)

Assuming you guys are concentrating (?) & NOT thinking of smutty innuendo's, or preparing to (gently) "fire" the next Volley on a previous post, I'll throw in some extra info'.......

Bear in mind this ONLY relates to the subject of the model..."2nd Patches" B.17 'G' = (4) 238 201

That gorgeous photo' of "her" being escorted by "Razorback" P.51's ("Checkertails"), PROVES that not only did Corgi get it right, when they made the model (of '238 201'), by giving her a 'Silver-Tail-Fin'; Silver crew-access door & Starboard-outer wing section replacement, they also erronously gave her a "Cheyenne" tail-turret (though, of course this MAY have been added, before the 24th Aug' '44 crash that ended her career ?)

To point out to 'Five by Five', it was common for '17's to have "mis-matched" parts due (mainly) to Flak-damage, as well as other causes..... (none more drastic than "Little Miss Mischeif".... a front~ half Silver/back~half Olive Drab/Grey '17 !!!!!!!!)

Getting back to "238 201 - 2nd Patches"..... she was delivered to Denver on 13th Jan '44 & was STILL in the "Z.I" (USA) thru Feb' '44.

According to the records, she was transferred to the 346th Bomb-Sq (99th B.G.) on the last day of March '44, at Tortorella, in Italy.

"That" picture also CLEARLY shows that the SHARKMOUTH marking/motif around THIS '17.'G's chin-turret DID exist..... AND, evidently, during war-time... as this picture is also re-produced in the Squadron-Signal Publication "B.17 in Action" (No.63), printed in 1984.

According to the photo'-caption, the picture (shown in this thread) was taken whilst the 15th A.F. (& "238 201") were engaged on a "Shuttle" mission to Russia.... having the dubious-pleasure of an overnight-stay in the USSR, before being re-fuelled & re-armed for a return bombing-mission
(so you WERE right, C.17 , VERY "witty", Cardinal )

On Page 43. of the Squadron-Signal book (No.63), there is ANOTHER picture of "238 201", even closer to the camera-ship, showing "2nd Patches" on the other, (Port)-side, which shows (also) that the Yellow 'nose-art' WAS carried both sides of the a/c.

Timbo, I'd say Corgi did well, on both the general-info' related to "238 201" , plus the "mis-matched" Silver-panels.

The "Cheyenne" turret remains conjecture; though NOT relevant when "that" pic' was taken; but STILL can't be 100% ruled-out.

I LOVE the 1/72 model, either way .

[five by five]

I never thought to look at Google. I wish I could snag that photo- I want to print some of them. Thanks for the link. I am going to buy some books and loan some from the library. Here is a list. Maybe you guys can tell me which ones have the most info and pictures on 2nd Patches?

The 15th Air Force Story- Kenn Rust

USAAF Heavy Bomb Group- Markings and Camouflage 1941-45-B 17 S14 Vol.2 Aircam Aviation(can't find this one)

B 17 Flying Fortress (not sure of title, he has two books) -Roger Freeman

B 17 Flying Fortress Units of the MTO (mentioned here)

Squadron Signal Pub. B 17 In Action No.63 (also mentioned here)

Hornchurch, which book had the picture with the caption about the flight to Russia? Was it the same picture I posted here?
Thanks again, everyone.

[C17driver]

I wonder where she is going???[/quote] Either to or from the target.[/quote]


I would like to add another "Truly profound and inspired observation" to this picture. Seeing how the ball turret is pointing down, they are over a friendly country. To get into the turret, you have to point the guns downward.

"The gunner could enter the turret from inside the plane by having the turret rotated until the door opening faced the interior of the plane. However, since this required that the ball turret be positioned so that the guns were pointed downward, this meant that the turret could not be entered from inside the plane while it was on the ground." (credit goes to a Google search)

[Hornchurch]

Originally Posted by five by five

Let me break this down:

djjeffhall-
I have been researching this B 17 for a few days (I'm on vacation) and can't find much about it.
Info I read says 2nd Patches is # 446393. Right now it is at March Field restored as "Return to Glory". I don't know if that is true. That's as far as I got.

Originally Posted by Hornchurch

Regarding B.17 (serial No.) "446393", she's obviously NOT the same a/c (& I haven't yet checked her out); but as you say, she is one of the very few fortunate survivors.

Originally Posted by five by five

In reference to #446393 they said that B.17 was displayed as 2nd Patches but that doesn't mean it is 2nd Patches. I know the names and markings get changed sometimes during restoration. I do NOT know why.
More to come. I am deep into this now. What a story so far.

Just been doing a check on B.17-'G' serial No. "446393" as she's (indirectly) been part of this thread, displayed as "2nd Patches".

Quite an interesting & varied career, albeit mainly Postwar, but with a VERY famous "owner/user" at one point.


Ironically, she WAS a genuine 15th Air-Force B.17, having been assigned to the 97th Bomb Group, in Italy, in Aug' '44.

However, looks like she never flew combat, as she was in "depot" storage later the same month (?)


If anyone can find out/confirm if she DID fly any combat missions; that would be interesting !!!!!!!!!


She was returned to the USA in May '45....

THREE years later, in 1948, she became the personal transport of Gen Ira Eaker (marked up as "Starduster").

Gen Ira Eaker had been THE Commander of the 8th Air-Force during WW.II (after Dec '42), so she was well-chosen !

Sadly, by the end of 1948 she was in the Phillipines, followed by a spell in China, in Nov '49 !!!!!!!!!!!!

During the early 1950's, she returned to the USA, only to be "mothballed" at Davis-Monthan, by Sept '55

In 1956, she was purchased by 'Aero Boliviano'.... during her time with them, she crashed, at 'La-Paz' in Bolivia, but was (thankfully) repaired !!!!!!!! (presumably, a landing accident ??????).

She returned to the USA in 1980 & the records say she was then painted up as " 2nd Patches" at the 15th Air-Force museum.


I would LOVE to see some pictures of this a/c.... (which is listed as being at "March AFB", California).


So, any of you guys who live in California got any pic's, or, likely to pay her a visit, sometime in the near future ???????

Fingers crossed

[smartd]

Originally Posted by Hornchurch

I would LOVE to see some pictures of this a/c.... (which is listed as being at "March AFB", California).


So, any of you guys who live in California got any pic's, or, likely to pay her a visit, sometime in the near future ???????

Fingers crossed

This help for now??

March Field Museum

[LzyBns]

One more question I would like to get clarified is the waist gunners position. in the E & G's were they not back to back and in the F's offset?......