[brunowbe]

Originally Posted by Captain Eddie

Welcome aboard, five by five. Are you also in Ohio?

Uh-oh, not another Ohioan, you know what kind of trouble those people are.

Welcome to the Hangar fivebyfive. Last time I was at the museum at Wright Patterson (Nov. 2007), you were not permitted to see the Belle. Can't wait to see the finished restoration, when is that supposed to be finished?

[HotTrap429]

Originally Posted by Hornchurch

Don't you agree, HotTrap........

It looks much better in the flesh & even GOOD photo's don't do it justice !!!!!!!!!

I wouldn't have given it a second glance, till I was saw it in front of me - then it was love at 1st sight !


(sad box-art though ! the join lines on the model in the box-art photo's sucks !)

I 100% totally agree with you Hornchurch! It's a beautiful model and I especially like the fact that it has the waist gunner positions open. The coloring is well done as well. You are so right, photos don't do it justice. Mine is still safely stored in the box waiting until I get a bigger place so I can display it. I do take it out once in a while to admire it though.

[five by five]

Wow. I don't know where to begin. Thank you everyone! Let me break this down:

mustangdriver-
I see the difference. I didn't realize the G model came with 2 different turrets. Some were saying that the BOL had the correct turret on it, which is the same as the 2nd Patches, which they said was incorrect. It became confusing. I don't doubt that all of Memphis Belle is there. I think I have pics of every piece, except for the guns, maybe. i just thought she would still be more intact. They have made good progress.

Captain Eddie-
Yes, I live in Ohio.

trexx0770-
Thanks I will be checking that.

Hornchurch-
Congrats. I know I will like the 2nd Patches. I actually chose it over the Bit O Lace because of the color and markings. Also, the brief info about switching places with another B 17 was interesting. Can anyone back that story up? If the color bugs me I will set it outside for a while. It's been very hot and sunny here. Once I pick up a few more pieces I am going after a Mosquito, Halifax, Lancaster and Blenheim, which I think is on the way. One more thing, "close to accurate" is my way of saying I want perfect, but this will do.

Starman-
Thank you.

HotTrap429-
I also like the shark mouth chin turret. Whether it's supposed to be there or not, it looks cool.

C17driver-
I noticed the Java E model too. The Yankee Doodle is an E model with a different turret than Java. Maybe damage like you said, or a "field conversion". The waist guns could just be a cost issue. Stinks though.

djjeffhall-
I have been researching this B 17 for a few days (I'm on vacation) and can't find much about it. Info I read says 2nd Patches is # 446393. Right now it is at March Field restored as "Return to Glory". I don't know if that is true. That's as far as I got.

brunowbe-
Yes, trouble. We were told that Belle had to be past a certain stage of teardown before anyone could see her. Don't know why. Our guide said they expect to be finished in three years. I doubt it. Although they have most of her stripped down to metal. She is totally disassembled. I believe they are using engines they had "in stock" so that will save time as these engines were almost new. I hope they keep her as original as possible. I realize not every piece can be re-used. At least we know when they are done it will still be the Memphis Belle. I think it's great that these gems are being restored, but it bothers me when they change the name, color and markings of something for no apparent reason.

Thanks to everyone for the help, info, and the warm welcome.

[Hornchurch]

Originally Posted by five by five

Hornchurch-
Congrats. I know I will like the 2nd Patches. I actually chose it over the Bit O Lace because of the color and markings.

Also, the brief info about switching places with another B 17 was interesting.

Can anyone back that story up?

djjeffhall-

I have been researching this B 17 for a few days (I'm on vacation) and can't find much about it. Info I read says 2nd Patches is # 446393. Right now it is at March Field restored as "Return to Glory". I don't know if that is true. That's as far as I got.

I think it's great that these gems are being restored, but it bothers me when they change the name, color and markings of something for no apparent reason.

Thanks for the response, Five by Five (great 'call-sign', BTW !)

I've got my "2nd Patches" on the table, next to me, as I've had it out the box for the last 15 mins & been gazing at it (still 'well-chuffed')..... it's a great-looking model, really is !!!!!!!!!

As I've been studying planes for nearly 40 years now (!) I figured I MUST have some pictures, or, reference material somewhere relating to this 15th Air-Force bird.

I DID double-check the history of this actual a/c (by relating to Roger Freeman's "B.17 Flying Fortress story") as the reference book actually lists EVERY (single) B.17 ever built..... plus it's (breif) service record & eventual fate.

ALL B.17's are recorded in Chapter 7. which basically constitutes 80-85% of the WHOLE BOOK ! (which is the overriding reason why I bought the book - an absolute MUST for any real B.17 fan).

"2nd Patches" fate is recorded on page 186 & is/was accurately related (by Corgi) on the inner-boxlid of the model !
She crashed on take off on the 24th Aug' '44 & was salvaged for parts, having been broken-up, in Italy.

Regarding the 1st bit; & your question - Yes, she did end up with spare 'sections' from another "donor" B.17..... a typical wartime 'Grafting-on' of spare body-parts, just like "Bit O' Lace" or "Little Miss Mischeif" (only far less drastic than the latter '17 !!!!!!!!!).

Corgi got that right, as well; i.e. = replacement Tail-Fin, Starboard Outer-Wing section, & crew ent' door.

Regarding B.17 (serial No.) "446393", she's obviously NOT the same a/c (& I haven't yet checked her out); but as you say, she is one of the very few fortunate survivors.

Will be interesting to see if she ever was "2nd Patches" for real (in her early-life), but she's NOT the subject of the model.

Hope that helps further (?).

[five by five]

I pulled this from an ebay auction for 2nd Patches, so I assume he copied Corgi's info.

"On 31st March 1944 B-17F 'Patches' of the 346th BS / 99th BG effectively 'switched' places with B-17G 42-38201 of the 815th BS / 483rd BG. The latter aircraft is seen here with a replacement wing panel, fin and crew access door. It carries 20 mission symbols and wears 99th BG late war markings with the addition of a shark-toothed chin turret which is a point of debate over when or if it, in fact, had been decorated as such. The black diamond 'Y' represents the 99th Bomb Group and the 'I' the 346th Bomber Squadron. "2nd Patches" crashed on take off on 24th August 1944 and was salvaged, whilst the original 'Patches' only survived until 31st March 1944, when it was brought down by flak over Weiner Neustadt (where they received a second DUC for withstanding severe fighter assults), along with the Scranton crew, two of whom were killed and the remaining eight captured."

The way I read this is on 31 March 1944 the original Patches was shot down by flak. They then stripped the parts from original Patches and put them on 2nd Patches, which flew all "patched up" until 24 August 1944, when it crashed on take off and was "salvaged". SO it is possible that 2nd Patches was repaired but if so what happened to her? Also, it says that original Patches was a B 17 F. I know that there were two Patches, the original and 2nd Patches, but what I don't know is why 2nd Patches needed those mismatched parts to begin with. Nothing is reported to have happened to her until 24 Aug 1944 but she received her mismatched parts on 31 March 1944, five months earlier. This is all, of course, assuming that Corgi is accurate in their info.

In reference to #446393 they said that B 17 was displayed as 2nd Patches but that doesn't mean it is 2nd Patches. I know the names and markings get changed sometimes during restoration. I do NOT know why. More to come. I am deep into this now. Hornchurch, THANK YOU for the info. I am so happy I chose this B 17. What a story so far.

[timbo]

That whole passage does not make sense!

If the original patches was shot down, then how can they have stripped it for parts for 2nd P?? It would be at the bottom of a smoking hole in a field. I have to say I do not think anyone at Corgi ever re-reads these potted histories before they publish them. There are tons of others like this. (like the RAF B25 based in Holand BEFORE D-Day!)

I also seem to vaguely remember that I found a pic somewhere on the web of 2nd Patches in use as a squadron hack, not an active bomber.

[five by five]

"If the original patches was shot down, then how can they have stripped it for parts for 2nd P?? It would be at the bottom of a smoking hole in a field."


Not necessarily. I have photos of a B 17 in flight with the wing torn off up to the outboard engine. I don't know if the parts even came from original Patches. Also, it never says when the parts were swapped. I am just trying to establish a timeline and make some sense of this.

Lastly, I found this:


This IS without a doubt 2nd Patches. You can clearly see the vertical tail section, crew door, and under wing panel. Also the name Patches with the "2nd" above it. What you can't see is whether or not the chin turret has shark's teeth. It looks there is something on it, but it could just be a reflection. I can't tell which tail turret it has. The caption under the picture said:
" 99th Bomb Group, 346th Bomb Squadron, B-17 "Patches" with Checkertail escort."
I wonder where she is going???

[C17driver]

This IS without a doubt 2nd Patches. You can clearly see the vertical tail section, crew door, and under wing panel. Also the name Patches with the "2nd" above it. What you can't see is whether or not the chin turret has shark's teeth. It looks there is something on it, but it could just be a reflection. I can't tell which tail turret it has. The caption under the picture said:
" 99th Bomb Group, 346th Bomb Squadron, B-17 "Patches" with Checkertail escort."
I wonder where she is going???[/quote]


It has the E, F, and early G tail turret.

I wonder where she is going???[/quote] Either to or from the target.

[Cardinal]

Originally Posted by C17driver

Either to or from the target.

Truly a profound and inspired observation/assumption ...

[timbo]

Originally Posted by five by five

"If the original patches was shot down, then how can they have stripped it for parts for 2nd P?? It would be at the bottom of a smoking hole in a field."


Not necessarily. I have photos of a B 17 in flight with the wing torn off up to the outboard engine. I don't know if the parts even came from original Patches. Also, it never says when the parts were swapped. I am just trying to establish a timeline and make some sense of this.

Sorry to be pedantic here, but if it was still flying it wouldn't be shot down - would it!

Corgi have a history of putting complete nonsense on their boxes.