[Gary Kennedy]

Did a quick Google and found this interesting article which may help Jim out with his memory game!

http://www.legionmagazine.com/featur...tory/02-03.asp

I'm still oddly enough trying to decide which Corgi P38s I want. I want at least two, perhaps three, but very few of the schemes announced to date really appeal to me. I reckon I'll end up getting Olds' 'Scat', but I'm not sure about what I'll pair it up with. Re the missing bombs on the EZ I suppose you could pretend he's done his bomb run and is flying home...

[JETFAN]

Jim,

The Raid You Are Probaly Thinking About Was The Augsberg Raid Led By S/ldr Nettleton Who Earned A V.c. For This Mission. The Date Was April 17, 1942. 12 Lancs Flew At Low Level In Daylight To Attack A Diesel Engine Factory. Only Nettleton And One Other A/c Bombed The Target, The Rest Had Been Shot Down By Fighters Though They Were Flying At Just 50 Feet Most Of The Way. The Other A/c Was Shot Down Just After Bomb Release By Flak. Nettleton Made It Home In A Very Badlt Shot Up A/c. The Mission Was A Desperate Attempt To Curtail U-boat Production By Wiping Out The Engine Maker.

There Is Video Of The Formatio0n On Its Way Across France, Presumeably Taken From Nettleton's A/c Which Demonstrates How Low They Were Flying.

There Was Another Daylight Raid By Lancs On The Schneider Works At Le Creusot, Just Outside Paris, On Oct 17, 1942 Arriving Over The Target At Dusk. Only One Lanc Failed To Return Of The 93 Which Attacked The Target.

Most Daylight Ops By The Heavies Were After D-day Once We Had Fighters Based In Europe And Virtual Air Supremecy Over The Battle Zone. I Don't Think They Went To The Ruhr Etc, But Just Continued Those Missions At Night.

[DCRanger]

I don't want to re-ignite any aggro here but hopefully just a little light. The RAF did indeed suffer heavy casualties with daylight raids during the early part of WWII and so turned to night bombing. The thing that they lacked at the time was a long range escort fighter. Yes, they tried the B17 and gave up for the same reason. The model of B17 that they used was one of the early models and their experiences of it's use were passed back to the US. This in part lead to improvements that resulted in the B17F which the USAAC entered the war in Europe with.

The USAAC/USAAF almost abandoned daylight operations for the same reasons that the RAF had but the long range escorts became available for the first time and the rest as they say is history.

The B17 had a small payload compared to the RAF heavies but the policy of the USAAF's bombing campaign combined with the long range escorts lead to the air superiority required for D Day by the destruction of so many Luftwaffe fighters in the air and on the ground.

One of the great contributions to all this was of course the Mustang which perhaps is a great illustration of what it was all about - team work. It was a US aircraft designed to meet a British requirement built by US industry and made superb when married to a British engine.

P38 by the way looks like a very nice casting with or without bombs.

[jim]

No aggro because you are 100% correct. In reference to the Mustang, I was told the story about how it came to be fitted with the Merlin. Evidently a party of engineers went to look at this rejected fighter before it was shipped back to the States. Amongst this party was a Rolls Royce semi retired engine technician. He looked over the Mustang and said I think we could fit a Merlin in that. Give it to me for a couple of weeks and I will give it a try! The rest is history and by golly what a history. He created the second best fighter ever built!!! Yes I am biased in favour of the Spitfire after all it could outfight a Mustang even if it didnt have the Mustangs range. Inccidently the the Spitfire MkV could handle the FW190 no problem in a dogfight, the problem was how to break off the combat. When fuel is low you got to go "BUT" thats when the Butcherbird gets you, you know..(read that somewhere but cant remember that either!

Originally Posted by DCRanger

I don't want to re-ignite any aggro here but hopefully just a little light. The RAF did indeed suffer heavy casualties with daylight raids during the early part of WWII and so turned to night bombing. The thing that they lacked at the time was a long range escort fighter. Yes, they tried the B17 and gave up for the same reason. The model of B17 that they used was one of the early models and their experiences of it's use were passed back to the US. This in part lead to improvements that resulted in the B17F which the USAAC entered the war in Europe with.

The USAAC/USAAF almost abandoned daylight operations for the same reasons that the RAF had but the long range escorts became available for the first time and the rest as they say is history.

The B17 had a small payload compared to the RAF heavies but the policy of the USAAF's bombing campaign combined with the long range escorts lead to the air superiority required for D Day by the destruction of so many Luftwaffe fighters in the air and on the ground.

One of the great contributions to all this was of course the Mustang which perhaps is a great illustration of what it was all about - team work. It was a US aircraft designed to meet a British requirement built by US industry and made superb when married to a British engine.

P38 by the way looks like a very nice casting with or without bombs.

[jim]

Ah yes Jetfan I remember reading about that raid. Was that the one where they mistook the target and bombed an almost identical building that turned out to be an asylum nearby. I am still trying to get the grey matter working and remember a similar raid in 44. The Caen raid was in daylight but I dont think they lost above 5 aircraft. Tisk I used to have such a good memory, its really frustrating when I cant recall things.

Originally Posted by JETFAN

Jim,

The Raid You Are Probaly Thinking About Was The Augsberg Raid Led By S/ldr Nettleton Who Earned A V.c. For This Mission. The Date Was April 17, 1942. 12 Lancs Flew At Low Level In Daylight To Attack A Diesel Engine Factory. Only Nettleton And One Other A/c Bombed The Target, The Rest Had Been Shot Down By Fighters Though They Were Flying At Just 50 Feet Most Of The Way. The Other A/c Was Shot Down Just After Bomb Release By Flak. Nettleton Made It Home In A Very Badlt Shot Up A/c. The Mission Was A Desperate Attempt To Curtail U-boat Production By Wiping Out The Engine Maker.

There Is Video Of The Formatio0n On Its Way Across France, Presumeably Taken From Nettleton's A/c Which Demonstrates How Low They Were Flying.

There Was Another Daylight Raid By Lancs On The Schneider Works At Le Creusot, Just Outside Paris, On Oct 17, 1942 Arriving Over The Target At Dusk. Only One Lanc Failed To Return Of The 93 Which Attacked The Target.

Most Daylight Ops By The Heavies Were After D-day Once We Had Fighters Based In Europe And Virtual Air Supremecy Over The Battle Zone. I Don't Think They Went To The Ruhr Etc, But Just Continued Those Missions At Night.

[JETFAN]

Yes, the loss rate was high in the early daylight raids, but they were comparitively few aircraft involved. Probably the most disasterous was a raid on Holland by 18 Venturas (B-34s). The fighter escort didn't make it and the Luftwaffe had a field day. Blenheims, totally unsuited for unescorted missions, were also the source of many losses though they did achieve some excellent results on low level attacks.

I couldn't think of any other daylight missions flown by RAF heavies than the two I mentioned prior to 1944.

An old friend of mine flew two tours with 158 Sqdn on Halifaxes. His second tour included a number of daylights including the last big attack on Wangerooge. He said it was very scary to see so many other aircraft around them which they had never experienced at night. I think I would rather have been on the day lights. His most memorable flight was the much debated attack on Dresden towards the end of the war. He said the fires could be seen for hundreds of miles away similar to the famous Hamburg raids which he also participated in.

[pieceOfCake]

Originally Posted by jim

Inccidently the the Spitfire MkV could handle the FW190 no problem in a dogfight, the problem was how to break off the combat. When fuel is low you got to go "BUT" thats when the Butcherbird gets you, you know..(read that somewhere but cant remember that either!

Hmmm, I believe the introduction of the Fw190A gave the RAF quite a sobering time as the Spit Mk. V was not the equal of the Focke Wulf, the latter having wrested air supremacy from the Spit by 1942 (Robertson et al. 1961. Spitfire - The Story of a Famous Fighter, Harleyford). The rate of roll on the Fw190A was prodigious, and it could engage the Spit MkV and leave at will. Undoubtably the Spit Mk. V could out-turn the Fw190, but as pointed out, one has to go home across the Channel eventually. Both Bader and Johnson have stated the 190 gave the RAF trouble and fortunately the Merlin 61 was mated to a modified Mk. V airframe by June 1942 to yield the lovely and talented Mk. IX. Both aircraft were competent fighters, tho I share a bias to the Spitfire. In the hands of similarly qualified pilots however, my view is that the Spit Mk. V would have a challenging time dealing with the Fw190A and might have quite a bit of trouble indeed.

The wonderful part of this hobby is that we can debate the merits of historical fighters whilst enjoying our models. This Holiday Season tip one to the lads who had to clamber into them and fly for their lives.

Cheers, pieceOfCake

[jim]

All very true Piece of cake, we are in total agreement. With equal pilots all the MKv could do was hold on and hope the FW190 broke off and went home before the Spit ran out of fuel. Bader told of how FW190 out flew the Spit and how glad he was when the MK1X Spit was delivered to the squadrons. I have tried to find the info I have showing relative rates of climb roll etc between the two types but it seems lost in the loft somewhere. (written by a british pilot testing a captured example of the FW). It shows the superiority of the FW190in nearly every department. There is no question the appearance of the FW190 shocked the RAF. Thank God that Supermarine and of course Rolls Royce could go on developing the Spitfire together and ultimately ensured it could master anything that it came up against.Just to drift off topic a little ,I wonder what a P40 would have been like with a Merlin fitted?........................................... .................................................. .................................................. ............................................. QUOTE=pieceOfCake;21847]Hmmm, I believe the introduction of the Fw190A gave the RAF quite a sobering time as the Spit Mk. V was not the equal of the Focke Wulf, the latter having wrested air supremacy from the Spit by 1942 (Robertson et al. 1961. Spitfire - The Story of a Famous Fighter, Harleyford). The rate of roll on the Fw190A was prodigious, and it could engage the Spit MkV and leave at will. Undoubtably the Spit Mk. V could out-turn the Fw190, but as pointed out, one has to go home across the Channel eventually. Both Bader and Johnson have stated the 190 gave the RAF trouble and fortunately the Merlin 61 was mated to a modified Mk. V airframe by June 1942 to yield the lovely and talented Mk. IX. Both aircraft were competent fighters, tho I share a bias to the Spitfire. In the hands of similarly qualified pilots however, my view is that the Spit Mk. V would have a challenging time dealing with the Fw190A and might have quite a bit of trouble indeed.

The wonderful part of this hobby is that we can debate the merits of historical fighters whilst enjoying our models. This Holiday Season tip one to the lads who had to clamber into them and fly for their lives.

Cheers, pieceOfCake[/quote]

[jim]

Many thanks sir, I enjoyed reading that. As to P38s Califonian Cutie Looks cool and I may have to invest in that one. Sorry I was a little late in coming back to this thread.

Originally Posted by Gary Kennedy

Did a quick Google and found this interesting article which may help Jim out with his memory game!

http://www.legionmagazine.com/featur...tory/02-03.asp

I'm still oddly enough trying to decide which Corgi P38s I want. I want at least two, perhaps three, but very few of the schemes announced to date really appeal to me. I reckon I'll end up getting Olds' 'Scat', but I'm not sure about what I'll pair it up with. Re the missing bombs on the EZ I suppose you could pretend he's done his bomb run and is flying home...

[swoop]

What if the nose held a wide lens camera or a photographer or a picnic area to partake the forward vista?. Either way, it seems to be bombing out.