[Gary Kennedy]

It looks like misunderstanding and miscommunication are still alive and well in the world...

My thought was that the B-17 bomb load was being queried, rather than the bravery of its pilots and crews. There also seems to be a technical issue as to the bomb load of the B-17 compared to the P-38. I'm pretty sure the B-17 could haul more than the 2000lb load suggested which raised the comment. Wasn't it closer to the 10,000-12,000lb mark?

Nicely put Jim by the way (RAF daylight bomber raids proved very costly and were still being flown into 1942 as I recall, ask the 1940 campaign Fairey Battle pilots if there are any survivors).

Gary

[jim]

If memory serves me well I seem to remember Lancaster raids during 1944 taking heavy losses in daylight sorties over France. Maybe some of the historians on the Hanger can help out with info?

Originally Posted by Gary Kennedy

It looks like misunderstanding and miscommunication are still alive and well in the world...

My thought was that the B-17 bomb load was being queried, rather than the bravery of its pilots and crews. There also seems to be a technical issue as to the bomb load of the B-17 compared to the P-38. I'm pretty sure the B-17 could haul more than the 2000lb load suggested which raised the comment. Wasn't it closer to the 10,000-12,000lb mark?

Nicely put Jim by the way (RAF daylight bomber raids proved very costly and were still being flown into 1942 as I recall, ask the 1940 campaign Fairey Battle pilots if there are any survivors).

Gary

[stalag8611]

Originally Posted by Gary Kennedy

It looks like misunderstanding and miscommunication are still alive and well in the world...

My thought was that the B-17 bomb load was being queried, rather than the bravery of its pilots and crews. There also seems to be a technical issue as to the bomb load of the B-17 compared to the P-38. I'm pretty sure the B-17 could haul more than the 2000lb load suggested which raised the comment. Wasn't it closer to the 10,000-12,000lb mark?

Nicely put Jim by the way (RAF daylight bomber raids proved very costly and were still being flown into 1942 as I recall, ask the 1940 campaign Fairey Battle pilots if there are any survivors).

Gary

Some statistics from Aircraft of WWII by Stewart Wilson regarding bomb loads:
Boing B-17G ( Designed 1935) Normal max load 9600 lb; Long range mission 4000 lb
P-38J/L ( Designed 1939)max bomb load 4000 lb
Mosquito (Bomber) (Designed 1940) Max bomb load 4000 lb; Provision for two 500 lb underwing bombs
I'm 73 and vividly remember WWII. One uncle was a waiste gunner on a B-17 and died in a training accident. My wife's 1st cousin was a co-pilot on a B-17F and shot down over Manheim in late January 1945. He survived the war as a POW. Timbo's use of the adjective "pathetic" to describe an aircraft that the Brits themselves christened the Flying Fortress, was in damn poor taste, to say the least. As a young boy I loved to read about the exploits of the RAF, still do as a matter of fact, and have a very soft spot in my heart for the Huricane; the real hero in the BoB.
Peace. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year

[timbo]

Stalag, I'm sorry if I offended you. I didn't slag you off personally and I take great offence at personal vitriol being fed back. Yes that word was probably a bit strong, and it was to describe the load it carried, not the men who flew it. I was trying to stimulate some debate here, not insults. You have to ask yourself though why a machine that put so many men at risk on each raid for a small load-out was acceptable, esp with the loss rates that they suffered, and the RAF's rejection of the same machine earlier in the war.

There is a BIG reason the RAF did not fly daylight raids in the second half of the war, and that was the massive and unsastainable losses they suffered at the beginning, which proved daylight raids were a bad idea. Maybe the american high command should have taken that knowledge and run with it, instead of the standard "Not invented here" attitude. Maybe a lot more of those boys would probably be alive today.

[admin]

Originally Posted by stalag8611

Congrtulations, Timbo, your British superior attitude finally broke through the "No Fools Need Apply" rule on this site. Pathetic? Just how many RAF bomber crews were lost on daylight raids over Europe? Lancs, Wellies - KISS my All American. 28000 Yanks died in the 8th Air Force alone Pathetic-you're one pathetic example of Tea Time for us while the Yanks get killed to save your sorry a*ses.

What ever the issue, the aggressive behavior between members isn't necessary nor tolerable.

[STARMAN 352ND]

Originally Posted by Gary Kennedy

It looks like misunderstanding and miscommunication

I think it was just a little miscommunication and misunderstanding between you two members as well.
Going back to the daylight raids my uncle(who i never got the chance to meet) was on a bomber crew with the B-17's during the war in 1943 and he left a dairy or journal (whatever you call it) and i have read it a few times and i have to tell you ....reading that makes you feel as if you were there...It scared living daylights out of me too when i was younger... being in that kind of position..Bullets ripping and tearing up all around you and the feeling you must be going through in your mind as all this was going on and on top of that have your buddy next to you get shot up pretty bad and yet you some how got through the whole event without a scratch....But fate did catch him... he too was one of the airman who were lost in Germany in 1944 as well.
His Journal and items was given to my Grandfather in 1944.
Today it has been passed down to my father and his brother will never be forgotten for what he did for his country.

Now back to the P-38 Drop Snoot how many of these are Corgi making again?
JP

[JETFAN]

Its sad to see two members going at personal loggerheads on the Forum. History is always a matter of opinion, so kiss and make up chaps.

Re RAF daylight losses. In the early part of the war, formations were quite small (16 to 18 max) and rarely had fighter escort due to the Spitfire's lack of endurance at that time. Though the loss percentage was high in those early days, the actual numbers were quite small compared to the 8th's due to many fewer missions and smaller crews. There are books available that list all the losses by year, though I don't happen to have these, so can't quote accurate numbers.

The RAF's view of the Flying Fortress as a daylight bomber was that it was under-gunned, operated best at an altitude that left contrails and of course was operated in very small numbers in that role, so lacked mutual coverage.

My mind always boggles at the thought of 1,000 bombers in a stream at night passing through the target in aout 20 minutes. I've often wondered how many were lost to mid-air collisions rather than enemy action. I have talked to many RAF aircrew who flew these night missions and it was always their greatest fear.

I often witnessed all the No.4 and No. 6 Group Halifaxes circling to form up into a stream of 3-400 aircraft in the early evening as they headed out from their northern England bases; a very impressive and noisy sight.

[flyXwire]

Originally Posted by JETFAN

Its sad to see two members going at personal loggerheads on the Forum. History is always a matter of opinion, so kiss and make up chaps.

I concur.

[jim]

Final word on this subject, I am sure I read about severe losses sustained by Lancs in daylight over France. If I could only get my brain working!! I shall have to look into this because it will niggle away in my head for ever if I dont.Dont you just hate it when you are sure you know something but can't just recall it. Hmmmm, Off to the library I think.

[bsmith13]

I think I want one of these P-38s.

Further thoughts on Strategic Daylight Bombing can be found here:

http://forum.themodelhangar.com/show...1723#post21723