[jim]

Originally Posted by brunowbe

Uh...........Jim......I thought I would provide you some video of Hans Marseilles killing a P40 in a 109 from his gun camera. It might be painful for you to watch.
He kills a Hurricane too.

YouTube - WW2 - Luftwaffe BF109 vs. Hurricanes & P40 (Africa 1941)

Hmm you dont see that very often, I think he caught the pilot asleep at the wheel.
Any closer and ol Hans could have tapped on the hood and woke him up.

Overall the P40 did very well against the 109s in the desert, the only real problem that P40 had was a fall off of performance above 20.000ft.
On escort duties the P40s often had to turn into diving 109s and take the first hit, but the P40 was such a well built old bird it could handle that and then proceed to remove the offending 109s from the sky.
Somewhere I have the kill ratios for the P40 against the 109s, I must rummage those out.
I do remember that the P40 came out on top by a decent margin.

heck they even gave the FW190s a hard time.

The Tex Hill P40 is a very good model and well worth picking up, CCs recommendation is a good one ,Neville Dukes Kittyhawk 1 is a nice desert scheme.
Corgi did a good job with the P40 mold on the whole, these models can often be found on ebay quite cheap, so good hunting my friend.

btw if you want an awesome P40 how about making space for a GMP, if they are too big then perhaps a Carousel P40 in 1/48 might be in order!
another btw, Neville Duke was quoted as saying that he out turn both the 109 and Fw in his P40 and also out dive them, he also said that it took a lot of leg muscle power to pull up into a turn from a dive but usually you finished up nicely on the 109s tail.

[brunowbe]

Originally Posted by jim

Hmm you dont see that very often, I think he caught the pilot asleep at the wheel.
Any closer and ol Hans could have tapped on the hood and woke him up.

Overall the P40 did very well against the 109s in the desert, the only real problem that P40 had was a fall off of performance above 20.000ft.
On escort duties the P40s often had to turn into diving 109s and take the first hit, but the P40 was such a well built old bird it could handle that and then proceed to remove the offending 109s from the sky.
Somewhere I have the kill ratios for the P40 against the 109s, I must rummage those out.
I do remember that the P40 came out on top by a decent margin.

heck they even gave the FW190s a hard time.

The Tex Hill P40 is a very good model and well worth picking up, CCs recommendation is a good one ,Neville Dukes Kittyhawk 1 is a nice desert scheme.
Corgi did a good job with the P40 mold on the whole, these models can often be found on ebay quite cheap, so good hunting my friend.

btw if you want an awesome P40 how about making space for a GMP, if they are too big then perhaps a Carousel P40 in 1/48 might be in order!
another btw, Neville Duke was quoted as saying that he out turn both the 109 and Fw in his P40 and also out dive them, he also said that it took a lot of leg muscle power to pull up into a turn from a dive but usually you finished up nicely on the 109s tail.

Jim, I'm just picking on you. Both aircraft served their pilots well. I've been reading up on both and I'm not sure the P40 could outdive the 109 (it depends on which pilots are asked), or outclimb it. In North Africa, Luftwaffe pilots were instructed not to engage P40s under 16,000 feet in any sort of turning fight, but above the 16,000 ft. mark, the 109 was superior. The other factor was the type of 109 against the P40, the E was inferior, the F and G were a match for the P40. Anyways regarding getting a GMP, I'm pretty sure the size doesn't affect me (look at the large 109s), it's the price. If I can find a decent price on one (after finishing off the 109 collection), I may just get one. The Carousel 1 P40 will not be purchased. I like their product, but they really upset me with their customer service (my Gotz Fw109 D13 came with broken landing gear and they didn't replace it, they said to send it back to the dealer, I super glued it) and lost my business. If I can find a Tex Hill P40 for relatively cheap, say $30 or under, I'd probably get it, if not I'll wait and get something else.

Regarding Hans getting too close, the greatest fighter pilot of them all (Erich Hartmann) used the same tactics, get as close as you could (usually within 50 yards) and light em up!! If you didn't get them, get out of there and get back your altitude so as not to engage in turning fights.

[11SQNLDR]

If I can find a Tex Hill P40 for relatively cheap, say $30 or under, I'd probably get it, if not I'll wait and get something else.

Try Perrys, they have stock left at $29-95 which is great buying considering this is a limited run of only 1000. No one else has them that i've ever come accross

[jim]

Originally Posted by brunowbe

Jim, I'm just picking on you. Both aircraft served their pilots well. I've been reading up on both and I'm not sure the P40 could outdive the 109 (it depends on which pilots are asked), or outclimb it. In North Africa, Luftwaffe pilots were instructed not to engage P40s under 16,000 feet in any sort of turning fight, but above the 16,000 ft. mark, the 109 was superior. The other factor was the type of 109 against the P40, the E was inferior, the F and G were a match for the P40. Anyways regarding getting a GMP, I'm pretty sure the size doesn't affect me (look at the large 109s), it's the price. If I can find a decent price on one (after finishing off the 109 collection), I may just get one. The Carousel 1 P40 will not be purchased. I like their product, but they really upset me with their customer service (my Gotz Fw109 D13 came with broken landing gear and they didn't replace it, they said to send it back to the dealer, I super glued it) and lost my business. If I can find a Tex Hill P40 for relatively cheap, say $30 or under, I'd probably get it, if not I'll wait and get something else.

Regarding Hans getting too close, the greatest fighter pilot of them all (Erich Hartmann) used the same tactics, get as close as you could (usually within 50 yards) and light em up!! If you didn't get them, get out of there and get back your altitude so as not to engage in turning fights.

Sorry to hear about your problems with Carousel.

With regard to P40s I fully agree with you about the climbing ability of the P40 or should I say lack of it.
There is no way a P40 could outclimb a 109 , climb rate was certainly not the P40s strong point.
F and G mark of 109 had the edge over the P40 in straight line speed by about 30mph at 20.000feet.
However despite all its shortcomings the P40 ruled the desert.
Both Neville Duke and Clive Caldwell said they could outfly anything the Axis forces had to offer.
The P40 was superior in the dive and could easily out turn both the 190 and 109.

As a gun platform the P40 was one of the best planes of the war, there was very little deviation when opening fire even when the full compliment of 50 cals were installed, (Duke rated it superior to both the Spifire and even the much vaunted Hurricane in that respect).
Those 50 cals were just awesome weapons.
Kill ratios against Axis fighters amongst the P40 squadrons were very impressive, 7 to 1 was not uncommon, ( I think one squadron had 9 to1 average).

As to the subject of ground attack, without any doubt the P40 was the best ground attack plane in the desert war.
The P40 could even carry a 1000lb bomb and hit the target with remarkable accuracy.
Extremely tough and able to take severe damage but still keep flying and get the pilot home.
The P40 was a major player in the desert conflict. Its contribution was incalculable.

Oh heck I just realized that I am on my P40 soap box again, tisk, sorry brunowbe its a major fault of mine.

I just love those old P40s.
Kinda brings a tear to the eye.

[brunowbe]

Originally Posted by jim

Sorry to hear about your problems with Carousel.

With regard to P40s I fully agree with you about the climbing ability of the P40 or should I say lack of it.
There is no way a P40 could outclimb a 109 , climb rate was certainly not the P40s strong point.
F and G mark of 109 had the edge over the P40 in straight line speed by about 30mph at 20.000feet.
However despite all its shortcomings the P40 ruled the desert.
Both Neville Duke and Clive Caldwell said they could outfly anything the Axis forces had to offer.
The P40 was superior in the dive and could easily out turn both the 190 and 109.

As a gun platform the P40 was one of the best planes of the war, there was very little deviation when opening fire even when the full compliment of 50 cals were installed, (Duke rated it superior to both the Spifire and even the much vaunted Hurricane in that respect).
Those 50 cals were just awesome weapons.
Kill ratios against Axis fighters amongst the P40 squadrons were very impressive, 7 to 1 was not uncommon, ( I think one squadron had 9 to1 average).

As to the subject of ground attack, without any doubt the P40 was the best ground attack plane in the desert war.
The P40 could even carry a 1000lb bomb and hit the target with remarkable accuracy.
Extremely tough and able to take severe damage but still keep flying and get the pilot home.
The P40 was a major player in the desert conflict. Its contribution was incalculable.

Oh heck I just realized that I am on my P40 soap box again, tisk, sorry brunowbe its a major fault of mine.

I just love those old P40s.
Kinda brings a tear to the eye.

It's ok Jim. Stay on your soapbox!
You give valid points and I would never argue the superiority of the P40 in its ability to turn fight or ground attack (quite frankly the 109 was awful in the ground attack role). As for firepower, I would give the 109 the edge (especially having that big old cannon firing through the hub). When it comes to pilots talking about their preferred birds, they tend to always choose the one that carried them safely home alive over and over. While reading the book JG 26: Top Guns of the Luftwaffe, the pilots of JG26 frequently stated how they could outfly any of the allied planes in the air (including the P51, Spitfire, Hurricane, and Lightning). They were biased, as are all pilots. Both the P40 and Bf109 were workhorses, not thoroughbreds, and served their pilots well.

[jim]

Originally Posted by brunowbe

When it comes to pilots talking about their preferred birds, they tend to always choose the one that carried them safely home alive over and over. While reading the book JG 26: Top Guns of the Luftwaffe, the pilots of JG26 frequently stated how they could outfly any of the allied planes in the air (including the P51, Spitfire, Hurricane, and Lightning). They were biased, as are all pilots. Both the P40 and Bf109 were workhorses, not thoroughbreds, and served their pilots well.

I think you have made a good summation of the discussion there brunowbe.

In the end its all down to the pilot and how he uses his aircraft to get the best out of it.

btw ,you may get some flak from 109 enthusiasts for calling the 109 a workhorse!

[brunowbe]

Originally Posted by jim

I think you have made a good summation of the discussion there brunowbe.

In the end its all down to the pilot and how he uses his aircraft to get the best out of it.

btw ,you may get some flak from 109 enthusiasts for calling the 109 a workhorse!

I'll take the flak, because if they were enthusiasts who actually knew anything about the 109, they would agree it was a workhorse!!

Jim, I'm almost sold on getting a P40, almost.

[brunowbe]

Here are some new pictures of all 5 of my 1/32 Bf 109s (thanks to stwhite for the Hackl). I also included a picture of another "bird" of mine.

[Cruver Collecter]

Originally Posted by brunowbe

I'll take the flak, because if they were enthusiasts who actually knew anything about the 109, they would agree it was a workhorse!!

Jim, I'm almost sold on getting a P40, almost.

Just like you, I am a Bf 109 enthusiast, and yep it was a workhourse (Nice looking one too.). I have eight P-40s, and have to admit I am a bit of a P-40 fan too.

[jim]

Your last photo is the best one brunowbe.

That is one mean looking warbird !!