[Shawn 507]

Originally Posted by Tedongganas

Vietnam ??

Tactically, yes!

[muesingman]

Originally Posted by Tedongganas

Having powerful weapons does'nt mean you'll always win a war.

By saying "underpowerded" I was not thinking of the weapons, I was thinking of the engines.

[firefighterpilot1]

Originally Posted by Tedongganas

Vietnam ??

Don't even go there.

[Kiwi Dave]

Originally Posted by muesingman

German Tornadoes have already seen combat and an F-4F undoubtfully produces SOUND in the air. So: did Strikemasters do so? A rethorical question, I think. If it really has to be something from NZ, it should be an A-4 in SEA livery and nothing else.

The only thing I have to relativate in my opinion is the T-33. I just oversaw it first. I must admit, it is really difficult to find an equal important aircraft in the training role; maybe the L-29 on the other side of the "iron curtain".

I have no problem with the German aircraft I mentioned, but there are many trainer type aircraft that have seen more combat. There are at least 4 South African Impala's with air to air kills. Omani Strikemasters have seen extensive combat, everyone one of them has received battle damage. South American A-37's and Xavante's have shot down many drug smuggling aircraft etc.

[Phantom Phan1200]

Originally Posted by firefighterpilot1

Don't even go there.

Don't worry I will.

Anybody who has read their history books & knows a thing or two about the Vietnam war knows the war turned into a giant mess fro the u.s not because the U.S military was unable to win but rather due to politics & the war being run from the white on a absurd & limited level.
In a nutshell the White House feared a larger war with either China or the Soviets due to their presence in the combat zone helping the north Vietnamese, so they made the U.S. military fight under very limited & often ridicules & suicidal rules.
Sadly resulting in the unneeded loss or American & Vietnamese life & a prolonged war.

To give just a example or two of some of the stupid rules U.S forces had to fight under. During most of the war if a strike crew flew over a SAM site & the missile was under construction or not online they were forbidden to attack it. the only time they could attack such a site was if it were online & shooting at them. On top of stuff like that many of the crews were forced to fly the same routes in & out of the combat zone day after day, making them predictable targets for NVA AAA & SAM units.
Again all these rules came directly from the White House on down.

America could have won the war quickly & crushed the communists had she been allowed to use all here military might all out.
In the end of the war this was proven by Nixon taking the gloves off & raining hell on the North Vietnamese with unrestricted B-52 strikes, which in turn brought them two their knees & the bargaining table in a short time.
The B-52 terrified NVA troops more than any other weapon, even if they weren't hit directly by a B-52 strike the sound alone drove many NVA troops mad with shell shock.
Also U.S & Nato forces won most all the major battles including Khe Sanh & Tet offensive, even under such restrictive rules.

The problem was the American public was sick of the the war by the time of the unrestricted strikes due to the total mismanagement of the previous administration, resulting in U.S politicians voting to pull out & end the war.
Vietnam was a tragedy for both the U.S & the South Vietnamese, it was lost not by the military or the brave men who fought, but by politicians & weak high ranking military leaders who towed the party line when they knew it was a disaster.
The north Vietnamese were also very effective in turning the political mistakes of the U.S., the anti war American left & media into a powerful propaganda weapon which greatly turned the tide on the war in the U.S.

Many people truly don't understand what really went on in the Vietnam war.
The conflict is anything but cut & dry & the military aspect alone only explains part of the story, to really understand it you have to know the politics too.

[firefighterpilot1]

Good post Phantom, that was what I was getting at. The common misunderstanding is that it was a shameful defeat of the US military when in reality, from a military stand point, the US was the dominant force in the conflict. Vietnam was largely a political failure versus a military failure.

But I'm sure everyone in Singapore knows that.

[muesingman]

Originally Posted by Kiwi Dave

South American A-37's and Xavante's have shot down many drug smuggling aircraft etc.

Really? So far I kept thinking those planes crashed because their pilots were on dope...

[Andrew]

Speaking of Politicians screwing up a war effort, lets not forget Korea and the more recent events of Iraq. You can thank Donald Rumsfeld for that.

[planenutsfrog]

Trainers may not be my prority, but I can't see why significant ones shouldn't be as seriously considered as any other class of aircraft...

The T-33 is to the jet category, what the T-6 is to the piston-engined's : It's a must !

Almost all types of basic jet trainers from the west have been mentionned so far in this thread, except one of the most successful :



The Fouga CM170 Magister ! (Used by : France, Germany, Portugal, Ireland, Austria, Belgium, Finland, Israel, etc...)

Would anybody else be interested...



In the T-28 ? (I would like a T-28D Fennec, the French COIN version...)

[Andrew]

This whole thread should be moved to a place like HM. I don't think CW would touch any of these. And for the right financial reasons too.