[STARMAN 352ND]

I picked up a book called "German Fighter Ace Erich Hartmann" The life story of the worlds highest scoring ace.
I got this book because i wanted to know more about the man and his fighter planes.
Nicknamed "Bubi" because of his youthful countenance, Hartmann was a member of Jagdgeschwader Fighter Wing 52 from Novemeber 1942 until the end of the war in May of 1945. On one spectacular mission, Hartmann shot down four American P-51 Mustangs over the oil fields at Ploesti, Rumania. After the war Hartmann, who won the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves, Crossed Swords, and Diamonds, was unceremoniously handed over to the USSR by his American captors.
From May 1945 until October of 1955, Erich Hartmann was confined in Soviet prisons and branded a "war criminal" by the vengeful Stalin and his henchmen. While in the gulags, Erich's father and his infant son, whom he had never held, died in Germany.
Released in 1955 after the death of Stalin, Hartmann returned to active duty in the new Luftwaffe and was key in training the next generation of German flyers in the ways of aerial combat. Erich retired from active service in 1970 and enjoyed a peaceful life until his passing in September of 1993. Hartmann fought all is life for Germany against the Soviet Union.
Also to think that just before he died, he saw the downfall of the Soviet regime and the reunification of Germany.
This gorgeous photo album, composed by his loving wife Ursula and introduced by Manfred Jager, Hartmann's life from his childhood in pre-war Germany, his military training and combat, his inspiring and enduring romance with Ursula Paetsch, and ends with his rebirth in Richthofen Geschwader 71.
This is a must have book.Has over 295 pages and never seen before pictures.

[PappyB]

Check out "The Blond Knight of Germany" as well -- a great read, particularly the combat anecdotes from Ploesti, and Hartman getting shot down/or bailing out to avoid same...

It's funny, but when he describes shooting down Mustangs I get kind of upset... it's clear not many of his victims survived his close in attacks...

[chiefs70]

Ditto on PappyB's comments about The Blond Knight of Germany by Raymond Tolliver and Trevor Constable. It was one of the first biographies of a German pilot I read and it made quite an impression on me. Another experience he recounts that I think truly defines his character is when he and Herman Graf refused their orders to fly to the west and surrender to the American forces while their men surrendered to the Russians. Hartmann and Graf were unwilling to leave their men regardless of the risk and chose to stay with them and take their chances. Of course they ended up in Russian custody regardless but it always made an impression on me as to the true meaning of leadership.

[Berkut76]

Originally Posted by STARMAN 352ND

From May 1945 until October of 1955, Erich Hartmann was confined in Soviet prisons and branded a "war criminal" by the vengeful Stalin and his henchmen. While in the gulags, Erich's father and his infant son, whom he had never held, died in Germany.
Released in 1955 after the death of Stalin, Hartmann returned to active duty in the new Luftwaffe and was key in training the next generation of German flyers in the ways of aerial combat. Erich retired from active service in 1970 and enjoyed a peaceful life until his passing in September of 1993. Hartmann fought all is life for Germany against the Soviet Union.

On behalf of both of my grandfathers, both of whom were highly decorated WWII Red Army officers I would like to apologize to Hartmann's family for poor treatment of the great Erich Hartmann while in the Soviet captivity.

After all, hunting down individual soldiers for sport, blowing up clearly marked hospital trains and ships, to say nothing of machine gunning of bailed out pilots was completely justified. They were all godless uneducated commies, right?!

Firstly, German invasion of the Soviet Union was clearly an EXTERMINATION mission, which ultimate goal wouldn't have been any different if Russia was still a monarchy instead of workers and peasants paradise.

Secondly, I doubt that Mr. Hartmann ever saw the inside of GULAG camp. Unlike enlisted men, captured Wehrmacht professionals were actually well treated by the Soviets, given the conditions of life in the desolated USSR at that time, of course. For example, my grandfather rations were meager than those of German engineers working on Soviet Missile program in Kazakhstan circa 1947.

Most likely Mr. Hartmann along with other high profile aces was forced to work as a flight combat instructor somewhere in the European part of the Soviet Union. A fate much more preferable than the one that befell countless captured enlisted men of Wehrmacht who were working in the mines or forests of the Soviet Far East and Siberia. Although, they ripped what the Nazi regime saw.

Unfortunately, there are not many participants from the former Soviet Union on the Western forums like this one, so the quoted point of view will likely prevail and Mr. Putin recent saber rattling tirade certainly doesn't help.

In conclusion I would like to say this, while I'm in awe of professionalism and fighting ability of German military during WWII, I'll shed no tears or have any qualms as to the huge losses that Wehrmacht sustained on the Eastern front as well as the fate that befell German POWs while in the Soviet captivity after the war. They were treated by their captors certainly no worse and most likely even better than their Soviet counterparts.

Regards,

Sergey

[Captain Eddie]

Erich Hartmann was no forced flight instructor while in captivity in the USSR. He was in a gulag, was put under intense physical and psychological torture to admit to non existent crimes.

Though I am by no means forgetting or writing off Nazi crimes, from everything I can determine, Erich was a good man doing his duty for his country in a time of war.

[Berkut76]

Originally Posted by Captain Eddie

Though I am by no means forgetting or writing off Nazi crimes, from everything I can determine, Erich was a good man doing his duty for his country in a time of war.

Once again, I'm not denying Erich Hartmann's fighting ability, I, for once would like to read in books dedicated to German fighting men on the Eastern Front the truth about their mission.

It's deeply offensive to me on a personal level to read that German war efforts on the Eastern Front were driven by "anti-bolshevism" agenda, i.e. "saving Western Civilizations from Barbaric Asiatic Russians led by duplicitous jews".

Stalin was a murderous bastard worse than Hitler, but that wasn't the reason behind mass scale atrocities committed by Wehrmacht in the former Soviet Union and Poland.

Anyway, I'll post the question on Erich Hartmann's time in the Soviet captivity on the Russian Military History forum. Hopefully, I'll be able to get a different perspective on this matter, but regular contributors there don't trust Americans too much.

Regards,

Sergey

[Captain Eddie]

Originally Posted by Berkut76

On behalf of both of my grandfathers, both of whom were highly decorated WWII Red Army officers I would like to apologize to Hartmann's family for poor treatment of the great Erich Hartmann while in the Soviet captivity.

After all, hunting down individual soldiers for sport, blowing up clearly marked hospital trains and ships, to say nothing of machine gunning of bailed out pilots was completely justified. They were all godless uneducated commies, right?!

Firstly, German invasion of the Soviet Union was clearly an EXTERMINATION mission, which ultimate goal wouldn't have been any different if Russia was still a monarchy instead of workers and peasants paradise.

Secondly, I doubt that Mr. Hartmann ever saw the inside of GULAG camp. Unlike enlisted men, captured Wehrmacht professionals were actually well treated by the Soviets, given the conditions of life in the desolated USSR at that time, of course. For example, my grandfather rations were meager than those of German engineers working on Soviet Missile program in Kazakhstan circa 1947.

Most likely Mr. Hartmann along with other high profile aces was forced to work as a flight combat instructor somewhere in the European part of the Soviet Union. A fate much more preferable than the one that befell countless captured enlisted men of Wehrmacht who were working in the mines or forests of the Soviet Far East and Siberia. Although, they ripped what the Nazi regime saw.

Unfortunately, there are not many participants from the former Soviet Union on the Western forums like this one, so the quoted point of view will likely prevail and Mr. Putin recent saber rattling tirade certainly doesn't help.

In conclusion I would like to say this, while I'm in awe of professionalism and fighting ability of German military during WWII, I'll shed no tears or have any qualms as to the huge losses that Wehrmacht sustained on the Eastern front as well as the fate that befell German POWs while in the Soviet captivity after the war. They were treated by their captors certainly no worse and most likely even better than their Soviet counterparts.

Regards,

Sergey

Hi, Sergey,

Perhaps I misunderstand you, but your "apology" in the first paragraph to Hartmann's family appears to be a sarcastic apology when taken in context with the rest of your post, and, it appears to me that you are, to one extent or the other, justifying his inprisonment of 10 years after WW II ended. However, I may not be understanding your point, please clarify.

I do not justify atrocities (sp?) by any one. It's interesting how Erich, in discussing his treatment by the Soviets, draws a bright red line of distinction between the Soviet authorities, who treated him terribly, and the Russian people, whom he found to be as good-hearted as any people anywhere.

[Berkut76]

Originally Posted by Captain Eddie

Hi, Sergey,

Perhaps I misunderstand you, but your "apology" in the first paragraph to Hartmann's family appears to be a sarcastic apology when taken in context with the rest of your post, and, it appears to me that you are, to one extent or the other, justifying his imprisonment of 10 years after WW II ended. However, I may not be understanding your point, please clarify.

You got it right Captain Eddie. My apology was indeed sarcastic given my family history. Yes, I have no qualms about the fact that Erich Hartmann was put to hard labor in the Soviet Union. Although, I draw the line on torture and forced confessions at the hands of NKVD henchmen (family history, once again).

My main problem is that regardless of what one might think about the Communist regime of the Soviet Union and present day backstabbing Russian foreign policy, the people of the Soviet Union (not Russians) bore the brunt of the Nazi military machine and paid dearly to stop it.

I will not stand for history revisionism when German fighting man portrayed as a misunderstood soul who might actually done the world a favor by stemming the "red tide".

I'm not against discussion of German military professional proficiency and combat "anecdotes", but I don't want it to be wrapped up in some aura of chivalry.

The same also applies to the Soviet regime who usurped the victory of the people of the Soviet Union and imposed harsh dictatorship with brutal repressions on its own people as well as those of the Eastern Europe.

P.S. Hypothetically, would my grandfather a VVS officer by the way been able to survive German captivity?

[chiefs70]

I can definitely understand your feelings on the matter Berkut76 but I don't think Starman was glorifying or endorsing the actions of the Nazi regime in World War II rather he was highlighting a book about an aviation figure who is quite popular among air combat enthusiast. One of the reasons many of us find Hartmann so compelling, aside from his score, is his personality. Unlike Galland, for example, who some see as grandstanding on his war record Hartmann preferred to stand in the shadows yet took whatever responsibility was asked of him - including post-war - based on his interpretation of duty and leadership rather than fame or personal gain.

I am not aware of Hartmann ever being associated with things such as shooting down parachutist or attacking hospital trains in the like. I am not saying you are wrong I am just saying it isn't consistent with what I have read. In the end, he always struck me as an individual who didn't lose his humanity in the grips of war. I am absolutely certain their were men like him on every side in WWII - German, Soviet, American, British etc.

As far as his internment after WWII here is an interview in which he describes it for himself. We can take it as the truth or not but I hope it is interesting to the forum members.

Hartmann

Once again, I completely understand your feelings Berkut and have nothing but respect for your grandfathers and others who stood defended their nation when attacked but I don't think it is, nor is it intended to be, an insult to the people who were victimized by the Nazi regime to discuss individuals in a positive light if they acquited themselves honorably on the field of battle.

[Berkut76]

Originally Posted by chiefs70

As far as his internment after WWII here is an interview in which he describes it for himself. We can take it as the truth or not but I hope it is interesting to the forum members.

Hartmann

Once again, I completely understand your feelings Berkut and have nothing but respect for your grandfathers and others who stood defended their nation when attacked but I don't think it is, nor is it intended to be, an insult to the people who were victimized by the Nazi regime to discuss individuals in a positive light if they acquitted themselves honorably on the field of battle.

Thanks for the interview Chiefs70. I was absolutely appalled by the rape story, which is unfortunately, absolutely true. Feel free to believe me or not, but Hartmann's treatment as POW as described in the interview was actually on better sides of things. Shocking, I know.

Most of the time the low-technical value German POWs were forced to work on clean up and reconstruction. Their living conditions were no worse than the regular Soviet citizens at the time who were starving to death because Stalin's unwillingness to participate in the Marshall plan (yes, the Soviet Union was offered to participate) and near 100% destruction of the Soviet industrial and agricultural infrastructure in the European part of the USSR by the Nazis.

Also, unfortunately, his story about humane treatment of the Soviet POWs if true was an isolated incident. Most of the time, the Soviet POWs were either executed outright, worked to death or being subjected to medical or scientific experiments like testing of effectiveness of Cyclone B.

On a side note, in the fall of 1942 my grandfather was stripped of officer's rank an sent to a GULAG camp in the Russian Far North East. Later on, his sentence was replaced by "re-assignment" to a penal company in the Rzhev salient. He would have traded all of the above for Hartmann's conditions in a heart beat.

In short, the German POW experiences while in the Soviet custody should be weighed against the prevailing living conditions of the Soviet people at the time and not examined in the context of Western standards of the time.

Regards,

Sergey