[mustangdriver]

I hate to say I told you so. We also have on at the NMUSAF, and they told us about that.

[FormerViperDriver]

Originally Posted by STARMAN 352ND

YF-23 re-emerges for surprise bid
Northrop Grumman's "forgotten" advanced tactical fighter leaves museum and could be heading for bomber contest
Northrop Grumman's long-abandoned YF-23A advanced tactical fighter (ATF) is emerging as the possible basis for a surprise contender for the US Air Force's interim bomber requirement...

I remember this story back in 2005.... FVD have you heard the latest on this program ?
JP

I heard about it at the time and was pretty exited about it, but to tell the truth, I think it's a dead issue right now, unless it's a "black program" so secret none of us know about it (that happens, so it could be... even for those of us with high security clearances). The Air Force has no money right now for this. We are having to cut everything in sight just to be able to pay for the few F-22s and eventual F-35s we're going to get. We are cutting 40,000 airmen, while the Army and USMC are building up by over 94,000 and getting all the war money these days. Now that Rumsfeld is finally gone, there is more hope for the Air Force, but it's still looking grim. So a YF-23 bomber program seems unlikely just based on budget considerations. Yet we need something like that to replace the F-111 (gone since the mid-90s) and the F-15E.

Again, if it's a "black program," maybe they have money for it "off budget." But my guess is the next bomber will be a UCAV (Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicle).

FVD

[mustangdriver]

Hey FVD what have you heard abou tthe testing with the F-35? I heard they are having trouble with the VSTOL equipment. As for the F-23, they are working on it, but who knows what will happen.

[FormerViperDriver]

Originally Posted by mustangdriver

Hey FVD what have you heard abou tthe testing with the F-35? I heard they are having trouble with the VSTOL equipment. As for the F-23, they are working on it, but who knows what will happen.

Hi MD. The latest Aviation Week I received has an article about the F-35 problems. I don't get much info on it from the inside, as there are still only a couple of test pilots who have flown the beast do far. Unlike the F-22, where I know pilots who know pilots who fly them, etc...

The problems seem to be relatively minor from a technical point of view, although the article stated they were behind in the test program due to various factors including weather. The bigger problem is cost escalations due to the goverment cutting back on yearly acquisitions ("stretching out" the program).

Bottom line is this program is so big, I don't see how anyone will let it fail. Too many international players involved, too much money at stake.

My personal opinion is that we should can the STOVL version and the Marines should buy either the A or C model. That would save a lot of money, and give them more (not less) capability. Yes, the STOVL can operate from dirt fields in theory, but that NEVER happens in real life. And the ability to operate from LHD and LHA carriers is not something that brings a lot to the fight (right now, each of those only operates 6 Harriers besides they primary aircraft which are all helicopters). But I guess they are wedded to the concept.

FVD

[mustangdriver]

When I saw the F-22 fly at KOSH last year, I was shocked at what it was capable of, and they said this was just a demonstration flight! I like the JSF and hope that it works out. I also have heard that the Osprey is now in service as well.

[FormerViperDriver]

Originally Posted by mustangdriver

I also have heard that the Osprey is now in service as well.

Yes, the MV-22 Osprey is in service with no fewer than 4 USMC squadrons (not counting the test unit). One of those is on its first operational at-sea deployment right now.

The Air Force has received a couple of their CV-22s (for special ops), but they are not mission-ready yet.

FVD

[Hoverbug]

Originally Posted by FormerViperDriver

Yes, the MV-22 Osprey is in service with no fewer than 4 USMC squadrons (not counting the test unit). One of those is on its first operational at-sea deployment right now.

The Air Force has received a couple of their CV-22s (for special ops), but they are not mission-ready yet.

FVD

There are no deployment-ready MV-22 squadrons at the moment. Two operational units have MV-22s: VMM-162 and VMM-263. 263 has completed its readiness training, but will be engaged in pre-deployment training for some months to come (the "at-sea deployment" is part of that). 162 is still in its initial training phases. VMM-266 has just stood up organizationally, but probably does not have any aircraft yet and won't be at strength for a long time to come. The other Opsrey unit is a training squadron - VMMT-204 and then there is the evaluation squadron, VMX-22.

There will not be any MV-22s ready for combat until this fall at the earliest.

Re: the F-35B. You are right that it is a major complication for the F-35 program, but I suspect that the Marines will fight hard for it as theres simply is no other option for an escort that can keep pace with the Osprey and remain on station during ops. Transformation is a wonderful thing, but it comes with some significant pitfalls.

[1250ships]

Originally Posted by FormerViperDriver

My personal opinion is that we should can the STOVL version and the Marines should buy either the A or C model. That would save a lot of money, and give them more (not less) capability. Yes, the STOVL can operate from dirt fields in theory, but that NEVER happens in real life. And the ability to operate from LHD and LHA carriers is not something that brings a lot to the fight (right now, each of those only operates 6 Harriers besides they primary aircraft which are all helicopters). But I guess they are wedded to the concept.

The Royal Navy also want the "B" version of the JSF for use on their planned carriers. And I wouldn't be suprised if they sold some to other Harrier operators like Italy. So even absent the Marines there will be support for that version. However if the British kill the carriers (not out of the question) then the Marines will be the only big supporters of the program and if the costs get out of control I could see the plug being pulled.

[FormerViperDriver]

Originally Posted by 1250ships

The Royal Navy also want the "B" version of the JSF for use on their planned carriers. And I wouldn't be suprised if they sold some to other Harrier operators like Italy. So even absent the Marines there will be support for that version. However if the British kill the carriers (not out of the question) then the Marines will be the only big supporters of the program and if the costs get out of control I could see the plug being pulled.

Yes, good point but it does bring up the fact that the UK is making a huge mistake by not ordering their new carriers with catapults instead of ski-jump ramps. Other than the fact that it will force them to operate an inferior version of the F-35, it creates a major problem with the ability to put a decent AWACS-type aircraft on board, such as the E-2C. Not having those on a 60,000+ carrier is downright ridiculous (there are potential solutions, but nothing concrete yet and it will cost a lot of money. Using the current Sea Kings AEW is really pathetic). The French have it right in this respect.

But for the Italian and Spanish navies, I suppose the F-35B is really the only option.

And thanks to Hoverbug for the update/correction on the MV-22. My optimism as to at-sea deployment dates was due to a recent conversation (last week) with a planner for 2nd Fleet who was here at Ramstein to help us with an exercise. Perhaps I missunderstood what he said.

FVD

[1250ships]

Originally Posted by FormerViperDriver

Yes, good point but it does bring up the fact that the UK is making a huge mistake by not ordering their new carriers with catapults instead of ski-jump ramps. Other than the fact that it will force them to operate an inferior version of the F-35, it creates a major problem with the ability to put a decent AWACS-type aircraft on board, such as the E-2C. Not having those on a 60,000+ carrier is downright ridiculous (there are potential solutions, but nothing concrete yet and it will cost a lot of money. Using the current Sea Kings AEW is really pathetic). The French have it right in this respect.

A lot of folks are saying the same thing. Seems mighty silly to build a carrier that big and then cripple it for fixed wing operations. My understanding is that the design will be suitable for conversion to catapult operation if the British decide to go that route in the future. The British are reportedly considering using a modified Osprey for AEW as a Sea King replacement.

At present the French intend to join the program and buy one of these to increase the progam to three hulls. The French version would be able to operate normal carrier based aircraft- basically the same airgroup as their current carrier including Rafales and Hawkeyes. Last I heard the French were talking about were bailing out because they aren't sure they want to spend the money.