[Juneau1]

Anyone heard if this model actually came in stock yet? It was listed as due December 15th up until a cuple days ago on the Admiral site. Now it is showing as list Fed 2007. At the rate they are going, Easy Models will have their Panzer III's out before Admiral.
Eric

[Legio LXXII]

It seems the release date keeps getting pushed back.You could be right about Easy Models beating them to a Panzer III with side skirts, Dragon did with the SU-85 which Admiral was going to release at some point.

I hope we see more from Admiral in the future (especially that 88mm), though they have been very quiet with the exception of their larger scale aircraft on another forum.

[Admiral Toys Inc.]

Dear Juneau1,

The M with skirts has arrived. It will be shipped out to our retailers and customers Friday or Monday at the latest. It is in customs in Dallas today.

We also have a completed, painted pak 40, but it is in plastic and probably will not be released in plastic. We have had too many negative feedbacks about doing our models in plastic. So until we figure out an economical way to manufacture such a small model in medal, you will have to wait on this one. It is a shame you all do not want it in plastic. We were able to manufacture very limited numbers (100 or less) and make this one of the most collectible pieces to date. It looks pretty darn nice in plastic as well. The only way you will tell a difference between metal and plastic is to pick it up. Oh, and the fact that plastic allows for "much!" more detail.

That being said, you know the fate of the other artillery pieces and tanks. We want to do them, but need to find a way to make everyone happy.

Regards,
Jason

[Legio LXXII]

Any pictures of this painted pak 40? If you read the previous threads, you'll see it wasn't as much plastic as it was the retail price at close to or over $40 on future releases. The general consensus seemed to be the price was too high and plastic didn't matter that much to the vast majority.

Coincidentally Forces of Valor will be releasing a 1/72 pak 40 that comes with a halftrack in 2008, the price... less than $20!

[Admiral Toys Inc.]

Originally Posted by Legio LXXII

Any pictures of this painted pak 40? If you read the previous threads, you'll see it wasn't as much plastic as it was the retail price at close to or over $40 on future releases. The general consensus seemed to be the price was too high and plastic didn't matter that much to the vast majority.

Coincidentally Forces of Valor will be releasing a 1/72 pak 40 that comes with a halftrack in 2008, the price... less than $20!

Legio,

Thank you for the reply.

The reason for the high price was the form of manufacturing. Each model is hand casted and individually painted and put together by hand. But you may say, "but, Jason, plastic models usually are priced cheaper." Correct, but this is using injection in a tooled mold, not hand casting.

Why not tool a mold for plastic and get a cheaper model out?

Because, tooling is the single most expensive part of manufacturing. Depending on the model, 1:72 scale models will cost anywhere between $20,000 to $30,000 dollars to tool. This means if you produce 20,000 or 30,000 models, you already have $1 per model in production cost. Now add, the prototype cost, injection, paint, assembly, packaging, insurance, shipping on and on, and you keep adding $$ to our cost. Then the retailers understandably want a markup and you have a model that cost X amount of dollars. And this is if you produce the 20 to 30 thousand models. It is our experience that you cannot sell 20 to 30 thousand models in the time needed to keep production on new products funded.

By hand casting in a special plastic, not the ABS used in usual injection, we are not constrained by the numbers we have to produce. For example, using injection with molds, not casting, and you only want 3 paint schemes of the Panzer III H, and you don't want us to produce more then 2,000 models of each, that is 6,000 models. In the above paragraph, if you do the math, we are at a $3+ to $5 per model before all other production cost, just in tooling. So it is a fine line you walk in this business:

Make a model, hope it sells. If we are wrong, and you all do not like it, we are stuck trying to sell thousands of models. However, with a high price tag and a different form of production (casting) we need to produce only 100 models. Trust me, we can sell 100 models.

In essence it is a one-off production. Who knows, we may take orders for a particular marking or division in the casting form of production. Imagine being able to customize your own model. You would truly have a one of a kind collectible straight from the factory!

About the $20.00 price tag on FOV... that is great! I am going to have to pick myself up a couple. Imagine how many of those they have to manufacture and sell to get it to that price! I am not surprised... I have seen FOV in every store that would carry such product on every continent I have traveled. When you can sell your military toys at Circuit City... you know you have a good distribution! It would be great to be as large as FOV. Truly the biggest player in this military game.

Regards,
Jason

[Legio LXXII]

Jason,

If you have time one day I wouldn't mind chatting with you for a few minutes about some of this, I have some ideas (maybe even save you some money in your production process) and questions. I think fully customizable models is an excellent idea. Honour Bound, a company that makes painted figures and vehicles in scale with King & Country, recently decided to do this with their vehicles. You customize the vehicle the way you want from the manufacturer, expensive but unlike any other company which is why they can get away with it.

So do you have any pictures of this painted pak 40 sample?

Regards,

Trevor

[Legio LXXII]

Deleted, meant to edit my above post.

[tankguy]

Hi Jason, thanks for the update. I too would like to see this ultra limited pak 40! Even with FOV coming out with one next year, I'm sure yours will be more detailed than theirs. Please make note that Legio was correct that it wasn't the material people had problems with, but the price. Can I ask if by "hand moulded plastic" you are really talking about resin, which is very fragile? I, for one, am someone who wants an untra detailed model that I can still handle and play with, ala Dragon's models. I'd also like to suggest that I think you have been selling yourself short as far as paint schemes go. If you would have had additional schemes produced at the same time your initial one was on your Pz IIIs I believe you would have sold significantly more, and also probably reduce costs somewhat. Dragon always releases 2 schemes of each model, and Hobby Master is doing at least two. The same goes for you your new one with skirts. I think you should have taken the opportunity to do at least 2 schemes (using the same basecoat yellow but with different cammo oversprays, or one just plain yellow. I like the dot cammo, but if you'd also doen one with, say squiggles, even if only of one additional color, I'd be happy.) I'm also looking forward to the Pz. III N with the short 7.5cm gun. Thanks for keeping us updated, and please post a shot of the "in hand" Pz. III.

[Admiral Toys Inc.]

Originally Posted by tankguy

Hi Jason, thanks for the update. I too would like to see this ultra limited pak 40! Even with FOV coming out with one next year, I'm sure yours will be more detailed than theirs. Please make note that Legio was correct that it wasn't the material people had problems with, but the price. Can I ask if by "hand moulded plastic" you are really talking about resin, which is very fragile? I, for one, am someone who wants an untra detailed model that I can still handle and play with, ala Dragon's models. I'd also like to suggest that I think you have been selling yourself short as far as paint schemes go. If you would have had additional schemes produced at the same time your initial one was on your Pz IIIs I believe you would have sold significantly more, and also probably reduce costs somewhat. Dragon always releases 2 schemes of each model, and Hobby Master is doing at least two. The same goes for you your new one with skirts. I think you should have taken the opportunity to do at least 2 schemes (using the same basecoat yellow but with different cammo oversprays, or one just plain yellow. I like the dot cammo, but if you'd also doen one with, say squiggles, even if only of one additional color, I'd be happy.) I'm also looking forward to the Pz. III N with the short 7.5cm gun. Thanks for keeping us updated, and please post a shot of the "in hand" Pz. III.

Dear Tankguy,

Thank you for your reply.

I am not talking about resin. I am talking about LMPABS which is low melting point ABS. It allows for casting and does not require injection. Not as fragile as resin, but almost. the pack 40 is great for this method, but the tanks we injected (that had small accessories) it is not the best. It turns into a true collectible without a lot of room for play. But the 40 has been played with by people in our warehouse for the last year without a single break.

Furthermore, there is not only one form of resin. We have resins that are stronger then steel, even on a small scale. What type of resin you use will dictate the strength of the model. But more durable resins are more expensive then metal injection.

I understand what you are saying about multiple schemes. However, many times it does not reduce cost when releasing multiple scheme. You do save on injection cost because you are injecting more pieces at one time. This does aid in reducing production cost. However, you can actually increase production cost because of the requirement for more and different masking tools, and tampo print screens. Therefore, the main way this process reduces production costs is if you produce the same amount of tanks, in both schemes, as you would in only one scheme. By this I mean if you intended to produce 3,000 of paint scheme X, you will need to produce 3,000 of scheme X along with 3,000 of paint Y. Now you have 6,000 models to sell, and are out of pocket on twice as many models produced. With the added stress of finding buyers for twice as many models.

We were working on different forms of paint application when we produced the first L model. We did not want to release X amount of models with the quality of the L's paint, when just weeks after production was completed we came up with the H process. Once we settle on a paint application, you will see more schemes come out in the L, H and M models.

I am not saying you are wrong, in fact we are starting to use this practice in other lines. But at the time we started the Panzer line we did not have the resources to produce multiple paint schemes for each variant.

Oh, and the big reason Dragon can do what they do is... Dragon is a China based company that owns their facility and therefore have much more control over their production costs. We are a US based company and use a facility that has a say in our production costs. Even though they primarily only produce Admiral Toys products, we do not own the facility.

You will see more schemes coming out together. in random numbers and times, in the future.

Regards,
Jason

[Legio LXXII]

You may want to consider doing a brass barrel for the pak 40 (or anything you do for that matter) as an alternative to all plastic or even metal. There are a couple companies that make aftermarket barrels in brass for 1/72 AFV's and they're reasonably priced. It's not a huge market but they manage to keep prices down so could be a much cheaper alternative.

Hopefully we can see a picture some time.